Guest blogger: Marfar … a rebuttal

477

Why You Move Derek Stepan for Rick Nash

I have been watching the National Hockey League for over 40 years and even a non-professional like me can identify who may be a special talent and who, despite his youth, and ability to make an occasional “wow” pass, is merely an ordinary player and will probably never rise above that. Such a player, I believe, is Derek Stepan. Conversely, McDonagh and Kreider are indeed unique talents, whose departures should not be considered in exchange for anybody.

One example of my talent assessment: I knew the Rangers would rue trading Tony Amonte for Matteau and Noonan, despite Matteau’s critical role in helping the Blueshirts win the Cup in 1994. Considering Matteau’s performance for a one month stretch, perhaps one could claim the trade was worthwhile, as it brought Matteau to the Broadway stage and our team to the Canyon of Heroes, but Amonte became a perennial all-star and one of the game’s most electrifying players for the next decade and beyond.

In watching Stepan for the past two years, I see an average skater with above-average vision on the ice and the ability to thread a needle with a beautiful pass. Two instances in this past post-season come to mind. The first was his pass to Kreider from the right boards in Game 6 vs. Ottawa, a game the Rangers absolutely had to have. The second was in the first game vs. Washington as he sent Kreider into the Caps zone in alone on Holtby. Kreider, using his uniquely quick release, scored on both of those pretty passes. No question, two great clutch plays by Stepan.

Unfortunately, the Derek Stepan Rangers fans see much more frequently is a center who loses more faceoffs than he wins and doesn’t win many puck battles along the boards, even trying to avoid mucking for the puck at times. He lacks speed and offensive tenacity. Worse yet, too frequently he disappears on the ice for prolonged periods during a game.

If Derek Stepan is the player who is the so-called deal breaker in the Rangers being able to acquire Rick Nash, Glen Sather is making a huge mistake. Nash would give the Rangers the power forward they sorely need to open up the ice for his linemates. Being continually outfought by the Devils for puck possession through most of the Conference Finals series, Nash, using his size and grit, would win many of those crucial possession battles. And what about the idea of the Rangers having a big forward who can go to the net, not easily get pushed away from the slot and knows how to score from that area of the ice? A dimension to their attack the Blueshirts really haven’t had since Adam Graves was in his prime.

Statistics can be maneuvered and manipulated and it is important for a true contending team to be good up the middle, as it is in baseball. What would the Rangers be left with sans Stepan? Richards, a consensus No. 1 center (when he’s not trying to be the center of “renude” attention before the camera); Anisimov, a good two-way center who probably lacks Stepan’s puck passing ability but plays a better all-around game; Boyle, at his best, a well above-average defensive center and a big force around the net who can excel in nearly all facets of the game but has yet to show consistency; and the recently acquired Jeff Halpern, still a good fourth-line center and one of the better faceoff men in the NHL.

Assuming the two forwards the Rangers trade for Nash would be Dubinsky and Stepan, here are the four lines the Rangers would present once Gaborik becomes healthy enough to play. Going from left to right:

1) Hagelin, Richards, Gaborik
2) Kreider, Anisimov, Nash
3) Pyatt, Boyle, Callahan
4) Asham, Halpern, Rupp

I believe this combination of forwards makes the Rangers a significantly more formidable offensive team than they were last season, and they lose nothing defensively without Stepan. And we cannot discount the possibility that some prospect, who until now needed more seasoning, may be NHL ready. So, c’mon, Slats, you can acquire one of the top forwards in the league and put your team in the position of being a leading contender for the Cup, even if it means losing a Step.

 

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477 Comments

  1. I would rather not trade Stepan However if trading him let’s the Rangers keep AA, Miller, and Yogan it might be worth it. I still think there’s potential for AA to surprise everyone, I’m just losing faith quickly, if not completely. Not an easy decision to make. Too bad Dubi has to go for the trade to work for Sather (I imagine). I think moving him to center between Kreider and Nash might be interesting. He might be ready/mature enough to move back to the pivot.

  2. Good analytical post, I would add only one thing: the ability of the coach to play (trust) all four lines as the most of the other contenders do. It is more important than getting Nash. our troops were visibly out of steam, whether you all agree or not. The third and fourth line grinders should be able to wear down the opposition to our advantage, a strategy….
    The other “the Jew thing”, as an “europansy” I noticed some twenty years ago in the NYC Public Library that the New York Times 1934-1944 not once mentioned “concentration/extermination camps. Go check out the micro-fiche there. I was very interested in that since I came here from a communist country that harmed the Jews more than the Nazis.
    So I find some of the contributors’ filings mildly obscene if not downright arrogant, even taking into account the supporting cultural (cynical) lumpen middle class intellectual morass.
    I am sorry, this is entirely off topic, which is OK for you, but not for me. I get it. Just ignore !!

  3. What they could also do is sign a Langkow or Hecht to fill in at C for 1/2 years if they don’t think AA can center the 2nd group. I think he’s better as wing with his size and lack of passing ability. Miller is another year away still.

  4. My only worry with losing Stepan is he has the tools and the vision, his skating and strength will improve over time (and can be trained – see Barb Underhill and Boyler), faceoff technique can also be worked on – lets not forget this is only year 2 and his point totals are already on a par with (and better than) other teams #2 centers.

    I agree we have to give up something to get something back, but we also have to consider the longer term implications of what will these players be in 4-5 years time?

  5. Stepan can put up 50-60 points for $800,000. Nash will put up 70-80 points(on a good year) for 7.8 million. Are those extra 20 points worth 7 million dollars? Would you sign a 20 point scorer to a 6 year 42 million dollar contract? I don’t trade Stepan straight up for Nash, it’s horrible value for the Rangers.

  6. Sioux-per-man on

    Great post Marfar!!

    Stepan is indeed a part of our promising young core of this team. He has played played well centering Gaborik when he was giving the chance. He’s a gold medal winner for the USA U20 team. And has done everything Torts has asked of him in his first two years as a Ranger.

    If we have to trade him to bring in Nash I agree
    it’s a trade that should be made. Not sure what the other pieces might be to make the deal work. But with Nash added and Stepan and Dubinski traded this is a better team.

    This is ONE of the players that would take us to the the next level. But how much more is Howson demanding???

  7. I’ve seen all sorts of conflicting reports about who and what Howson is asking for – some say he’s asking for one of Kreider/McDonagh others say he’s not and he’s asking for Dubi + one of Step/MDZ/Erixon.

    I dont think Slats wants to trade too many of our young core and may be waiting to see if he can get Doan on a 2-3 year deal before maybe making Howson an improved offer.

    The other things muddying the waters are Ryan, who is cheaper and as productive and not such a long-term commitment (if he does well then you can offer him an extension in 2 years time, if not you can let him walk), Semin, as a short-term experiment (i still think he will sign with the Ice Chickens) – plus the never-ending Shea Weber speculation which while not directly related in terms of positional need, would involve teams using similar assets to acquire him.

    Do i want Nash? Hell yeah! But not at the expense of more than 2 roster players and draft picks/prospects and ideally not MDZ or Stepan as part of it.

  8. Nice Post.

    But I have to disagree. Stepan is guilty of being young and suffers from maturation process. He just turned 22 last month. Anisimov is two years older, but is he two years better? Hardly. What has Anisimov done to warrant consideration for the #2 Center position? He is woefully inconsistent, lacks Stepans vision (as evidenced by the number of devastating hits he takes), and absolutely can not compete when the competition (playoff level) heats up. Trading stepan is a BIG mistake. The NYR would be MUCH BETTER if they were to add Semin as a UFA. Yes, he is enigmatic, but he puts up Parise like #’s and may even be the player that gets the most out of enigmatic Anisimov.

    But if a trade is to be made, it has to be Anisimov that has to go. Stepan is a keeper.

  9. With that said, the numbers suggest something is gonna happen. A trade is DEFINITELY on the horizon.

  10. bull dog line on

    Amonte went on to compile a lot of points, but no playoff success. AA as your number 2 center is laughable. has failed at it twice in his career. while I agree Stepan skating is only average, I do not agree with the thought that Stepan is soft. he finishes every check he can, and will take a hit to make a play. not sure what everybody thinks Nash is. has had no playoff success to speak of, and has failed to carry his team anywhere but to last place.

  11. bull dog line on

    and somehow you have moved Cally to the 3rd line, a checking line no less. the way you have them built, Nash is going to have to play left wing. the team you have left may very well score less goals.

  12. I personally think Nash is a mistake. The NYR are the 3rd best team in the NHL. Make a trade for Weber? Sure. The best Right Dman in the league. The NYR NEED a Right D. And a PP man. But if I am Sather, I sign Semin. The NYR need to keep this core.

    Nash is very good, but the cost is too high.

  13. 1) Hagelin, Richards, Gaborik
    2) Kreider, Anisimov, Nash
    3) Pyatt, Boyle, Callahan
    4) Asham, Halpern, Rupp

    I would think Nash would be top line.

    I would suggest:

    Krieder-Richards-Gabby
    Semin-Stepan-Cally
    Dubi-Boyle-Anisimov
    Rupp-Halpern-Pyatt (Asham scratch)

    MacD-Girardi
    Staal-MDZ
    Erixon-Stralman (Bickel scratch)

  14. bull dog line on

    1 month into the season and the Rangers would have to trade for a center. more than likely overpay for him, since they would not be trading from a position strength. sure you got the player you wanted, but you did not look at the bigger picture. the Nash trade would lead to a trade for a center, and when the smoke has cleared, you no longer see the team that was in the ECF one year earlier.

  15. And even worse about the trade for Nash will be the cap room left over to sign the upcoming RFA’s like MDZ, etc.

  16. i can’t believe i’m saying this but, semin might be the next best option after doan for the rangers. wow there it is.

    i would love to have doan. i would give up a lot for bobby ryan and i would give up somethings for nash. but semin could be had for less and here is the why

    A- obviously, he is an elite scorer. he is a sniper like rangers haven’t had since bure.
    B- he will demand less salary cap hit than doan or the others would (yes ryan is less now but when he get resigned it will be high)
    C- he was portrayed as a player who doesn’t play tough or plays both ends of the ice in wash…ok, i will agree he isn’t tough or a torts kinda guy and we all saw that pansy like performance against staal a few years ago (no that did not signal the start of marc’s concussion issues). BUT, here are facts. since the end of 2007-08 season semin is a plus 92 player. (Ovi is plus 69 over that same time). so why not make an offer that is fair and if he bites on it you have another legit sniper who can play with stepan and dubi instead in place of stepan and dubi?

    maybe i should have another cup of coffee

  17. Today on Puck and Gavel, I talk some Rangers…the Kitchener Rangers, that is. I have an analysis of their recently filed defamation suit against University of Michigan student paper The Michigan Daily and reporter Matt Slovin.

    puckandgavel.blogspot.com

  18. Good post, Marfar!

    I think it’s way too early in his career to predict that what you suggested would be Stepan’s ceiling. Even people who do it for a living are very often hesitant to make such predictions. The general consensus is that the Rangers feel he is projected to be a solid, two-way second line center. That’s a difficult trade to make already. But the other issue is, Howson isn’t talking Stepan for Nash. How many more important young players do you need to give up? Tough call.

  19. Sioux-per-man on

    Lots of options out there that’s for sure. Doan and Semin – require no trades just $$$. Less risk depending on the salaries it would take to bring them in.

    VS

    Nash & Ryan which would require trading youth and 1st round picks.

    Weber – kind of a reach, considering Nashville isn’t going to let their Captain walk without a Big Time offer that would extend his contract. Unless ….. he wants to win a Stanley Cup, then that might bring the Rangers to the table. I would think the Rangers have some of the best young Defensemen that would be needed to make the trade with Nashville.

    Ideally he would be the quick fix to the power play. If not we will have to see what DZ and McD can bring to the table this year. Both players lead in +/- last year. Both had a great stat season as a young defenseman.

    It’s going to be another good growth year.

    But it’s going to be a SLOW trade day today…. I predict NOTHING will happen today :)

  20. And This One Will Last A Lifetime on

    Thanks for the guest blog and somewhat interesting read….however, point denied
    Before yesterday’s post, I was all in for Nash even if it includes Stepan
    After yesteday’s post I was convinced otherwise, and would not include Stepan
    Today’s post is not compelling, not even the least bit.

    -The idea is to win a cup. Matteau was a big part of that for us. Amonte was a good player that did not. You over rate Amonte, who was excellent but 400 goals in 1200 games is not over the top

    -We even traded goal scorer Mike Gartner for Glenn Anderson which helped us win a cup.

    Stepan played ALL 82 games as a 20 and 21 year old ! Plays on the PP/PK/top 6/…can’t wait to see him as a 22 year old.
    He is far and away the better option to center the 2nd line than your line up after the trade …AA
    AA to me had topped out to what he is and will be in the NHL…and it is less than a 2nd line center

    Sorry, this reader says your rebuttal was good off season reading, but completely unconvincing.

  21. Nice OP, but I disagree. First of all, it would be nice to have a line with Nash and Kreider but who’s gonna get them the puck? AA? I used to think the guy was going to be a top talent, but I haven’t seen it and he’s older than Step. You want to sub AA for Step in the deal and I’d say go for it. Then you have Step feeding the puck to his wings, and we KNOW he’s a great passer. But I kind of like going for Semin now. Sign him for a year if you can (does the NHL have team options like the MLB does? If so, I’d sign him for one year with a team option for 2 more). The other thing is, remember about power forwards, generally they are DONE by 30. Nash is only 2 years from that AND he’s now going to a division where EVERY game is played like a playoff game. Can he handle that? Nash will be beat up within 2 years and the money spent on him will look foolish.

    I say sign Semin for a year and see what happens. Then, go after Webber, and you’ve got yourself a complete team. Two lines of scoring (as laid out by CC), a good set of checking lines (and you know that Torts doesn’t play the 4th line much anyway). The third line has some scoring with Cally (and Dubi if he bounces back) and Boyle can go through a streak where he will score too. You got Halperin for faceoffs, playing the McTavish role on this team.

  22. Interesting thought about Howson getting fired – wonder if Nash will stay then if a new GM says he is going to get him a top center?

    I think most likely is the Nash thing will play out once Doan and Semin have found teams to see who is left with a need and the assets to acquire him.

    Then, we might see the CBJ ownership look at what they could have had 6 months ago compared to what they get this time and wonder if Howson has handled it well.

  23. I actually think the Rangers would have been better off with Gartner over Anderson. I hated seeing Amonte go, but the Rangers added defense and grit that payed off. Anderson had 3 goals and 3 assists in the playoffs. I think the Rangers could have used Gartner’s speed and goal scoring more. They may have even avoided a 7 game series against the Devils. Since it is in the past, we will never truly know, but I always hated that trade.

  24. A great question is, “How does Howson *not* get fired?”

    Honestly. How does he still have a job? Even Montreal wouldn’t put up with this sort of prolonged incompetence.

  25. HugeRangersfanfromTx on

    Nice post and rebuttal Marfar but I think the lines you put up justifies why you don’t move Stepan…

    Move Stepan’s 60 points for Nash’s 80? Is the 7 million dollar jump worth it?

    Artie as the 2nd line center? He certainly has the talent but not the consistency or playmaking ability to be the 2nd line center…

    If you move Stepan the only guy who’s on the market you move him for is Shea WWeber.

    Well written post! Good argument to have going on in the dog days of July..

  26. +Centres ranked by ability+

    Richards
    Stepan
    Bickel (SICK Faceoff %)
    Anisimov
    Halpern
    Boyle
    Dubinsky

  27. Both Dubi and AA have proven that they are better on the wing than center. They might work as defensive centers, but they are not playmakers. If Stepan were as limited as people say, I think he would have been gone by now. I don’t see him being a 1st center, but he is a very solid second center and the Rangers have nobody to fill that position. AA is not a 2nd center. He could play wing on the 2nd line for fill in purposes, but until he develops consistency, he is a 3rd line player.

  28. I’ve been a fan for over 40 years also and I disagree with Marfar and being a fanfor over 40+ years doesn’t make you a expert at knowing what a young player is going to turn out to be, professional scouts can’t even say such a thing. I don’t understand some of these ranger fans and there love affair with getting a guy who’s cap hit will be 7.8, adding someoe who will possibly have the same point total as the players mentioned going to Columbus, it’s idiotic. Why do I get the feeling that the fans that are crying for Nash are yankee fans. This isn’t baseball, this is hockey that has a hard cap. Sather is doing the right thing here. I’m so sick of this Nash crap.

  29. If AA, at 24, has reached his ceiling, as some of you suggest, what makes you think the other GMs would ask him to be included in a trade?

  30. Everyone is penciling Gabby on the first line . Proberly not until January who is going to play there with BR until he returns .
    Hags BR Semin
    Kreider Step Cally
    Dubie AA Boyle
    Pyatt Halps Rupp/Asham
    Signing Semin would only cost $$$$ no roster players then after January
    Semin BR Gabby
    Kreider Step Hags
    Dubie AA Cally
    Boyle Halps Pyatt
    Asham /Rupp /Haley extra forwards
    Might even see one of Miller Yogen Thomas make the team out of camp which would be great thing to happen for the depth . Semin might be worth the price just to stay the course with the team we had last year . Hopefully Kreider and Hags and Dubie can pick it up a little until Gabby gets back . And if Sauer makes it back we could contend for the CUP

  31. 1940! 1940! 1940! I came to loath that chant, in large part because it truly was a dubious record of futility.

    That cup win in 1994 stands for me as one of the most incredible sporting moments in my life (a life that spans 55+ years now).

    There is not a single move made to help win that cup – no one should rue the Amonte trade.

    EVER!

  32. Oops…should have said ‘There is not a single move made to help win that cup that should be regretted – no one should rue the Amonte trade.’

  33. I’m on the fence about trading for Nash. One the one hand, the Rangers need a guy with his skill level. It’s something that they lack and can make a big difference in the team. On the other hand, I can’t see giving up 2 or 3 players plus a prospect and #1 draft choice for him. After all if you give up Dubi and Stepan – these guys are both potential 20 goal scorers. So you’re giving up 40 potential goals plus other assets to get Nash’s 35-40 goals? Doesn’t make sense to me.

    I guess whatever the team does whether it’s make the trade or stand pat will be OK with me as long as they don’t gut the team to get one star player.

  34. The longer it continues with Semin, the more I think he’ll end up playing for Fedorov. Or some other Russian team.

  35. Semin won’t work on the Rangers. His best season were when Washington was playing run-and-gun. Semin is a decent defensive player and has obvious offensive talent. The issue will be with the way he plays the game vs. the way the Rangers play. He takes nights off, takes dumb offensive zone penalties, and is not somebody who will dig in the corners and do some of the little things the Rangers take pride in. He doesn’t fit the identity of the team. Would it kill them to sign him for one year? Nope. I wouldn’t have a big problem with it, but the Rangers will pass because he doesn’t fit their system and team philosophy. People can complain about that all they want, but it has paid dividends and they are not going to diverge from it.

    If teams are willing to accept what Semin can’t/won’t do and maximize what he can do, then you have found the right fit. I don’t think the Rangers are that team. If they are willing to, then a 1 year deal could work very well, if Semin is up for it. However, I just don’t see the Rangers going for it. For the first time in a very long time they have a philosophy and they are sticking to it. Something fans have been screaming for.

  36. I appreciate a guest post and credit anyone with the ability or drive to write one. But I’ve got to take issue with Marfar’s stance here, mainly because it really ignores the leading reason the Rangers shouldn’t grab Nash(his $7.8 million salary) and then glides right by the reality of this player(he only scored 70 or more points in one of his nine seasons in the NHL). Nor does it take into consideration that Stepan, even if he was moved in a deal, would need to be joined by at least two more players, likely three.

    Now onto the analysis: Yes, if we’re comparing Stepan to Nash, there really is no comparison. And yes, Nash is a better player than Stepan. But is he a better player for the Rangers, even after what they’re going to have to move to get him? No way. Again, I can’t see any real-life scenario where the Rangers trade a collection of prospects, picks and players to get Nash without upsetting the product they iced last year. Sad as it may be, the three losses this team had to free agency this year have already changed its makeup. Now we’re talking about losing two, maybe three more players? A quarter of the roster turning over including one of the up-and-coming centers?

    Also, Stepan does not have simple ‘above-average’ vision. Folks, this is a hallmark of his game and one of the reasons he’s succeeded at every level he’s played. You can teach a player to go hard along the boards. Hell, the Devils ‘won’ many of those battles in the playoffs using an NHL castoff(Bernier), a career minor league midget(Gionta) and an NHL plugger who has never played more than 70 games in a season(Carter). What you simply can’t teach is what Stepan has: Vision. You either have it or you don’t. Step sees the game in slow motion, which is an ability that is rare and ultimately means his ceiling will be a lot higher than players who are better then him in all the other areas.

    Marfar, you really under-estimate this kid. Trading him at this point would be a real loss to the team, which they can’t and won’t be able to replace until years down the road. Trading him for Nash would be an utter travesty.

  37. Also, more than a few players that have played with him have said he is a bad teammate. Taking into consideration the value Torts places on locker room cohesiveness, I don’t think they want to invite that trouble.

  38. if the rangers were going to trade stepan, which sather already said he won’t, don’t you think the rangers would have swung a deal with the ducks by now for bobby ryan. I can’t tell you how happy I am that sather is sticking to his guns and building the team the right way.

  39. My last comment was about Semin, not Nash. This is what Matt Bradley, a former Capital had to say about Semin: “He could easily be the best player in the league. For whatever reason, just doesn’t care. You need him to be your best player, or one of your best players, and when he doesn’t show up, you almost get the sense that he wants to be back in Russia. That’s tough to win when you’ve got a guy like that.”

    Boudreau was quoted as saying: “Who knows what [Alex] is thinking. The minute I learn to read him, he throws me a curve ball. One day he looks like the greatest star on Earth and the next day you want to use a stick and beat him over the head with it. E’s the enigma of enigmas.”

    That is the stuff that won’t fly with Torts, regardless of the skill.

  40. The “only hold onto elite young talent” would have had us moving Callahan years ago.

  41. also, from what I’ve been reading from columbus fans posting on the columbus dispatch blog, it appears to me that Nash is not a good character guy. It appears Nash picked those teams knowing they have a chance of winning a stanely cup for the next several years. This guy wants his cake and eat it to the easy way. Instead of honoring his contract that he signed with the bluejackets and help them get to the stanely cup, he wants to join a team and ride the wave.

  42. CC, i don’t give a hoot aboot Dolan’s extra 7mm from a relative value standpoint – if it is going to be unused otherwise you trade for Nash (you’re also recouping Dubie’s hit in the process.)

  43. So nhl.com has a breakdown handicapping all the possibilities for Nash.

    The six teams he’ll go to are all competititve for the Cup, so basically none of them desparately need the guy. To sum it up:

    Rangers have the cap space to do it, could probably use him more than the other teams, and between Dubi, AA, MDZ, Thomas, McIlrath and Miller probably have the goods to get the deal done.

    Penguins have the cap space but would have to part with their best young prospects including Dumolien who they just got in the Staal trade.

    Sharks really dont have the cap space. If CBJ will take a package with Clowe and not much else it could happen. But they will not include Couture or Pavelski.

    Detroit doesnt have the assets to trade because CBJ will want alot more from them than anyone else.

    Boston doesnt have the cap space at all. The names on Howsons list (Lucic, Sequin, d prospect ) all seem like non-starters to me.

    Philly also has cap issues and would have to give up Couturier, Schenn or both, although they could offer Simmonds or Matt Read.

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=637714

    In any case, to me the fundamental issue is this:none of these teams desparately need Nash. You would be adding a top-end goal scorer which is great, but even with the Rangers, you’d be giving up plenty of goals and grit in any combo of Dubi, AA, and MDZ. A team like Ottawa would clean out their prospect drawer because they are losing Alfredsson and need a top end talent like this to play with Spezza. But Nash doesn’t want to go there, and the places he wants to go don’t need him badly enough to really sacrifice anything.

  44. @stevezipay@ If he can stay healthy, worth every penny….RT @RenLavoieRDS@ Panthers signs Peter Mueller 1 year/ $1 725 000

  45. peter makes a great point, this isn’t 1994 where the core players on the 94 team were at there primes so the rangers organization went all in by morgaing there farm system and young players to win the cup. The rangers are the 4th youngest team in hockey. There young core will only get better and they were 2 games away from reaching the stanely cup.

  46. If anyone is a member at hfboards, I would appreciate them plugging my blog from today by creating a new thread in the business of hockey section. Whenever I try, they block all of my posts/threads because I’m plugging my own blog.

  47. All good points, Tommy. That is, of course, unless we trade them away for much older and more expensive assets. Which I really hope we do not.

    The only thing that scares me is preparing for Free Agency for a lot of our talented youngsters and, most importantly, HANK. If we lost Hank then we would have ZERO chance of winning a cup.

  48. No offense, Marfar, but I strongly disagree with the entire message of your post. Good job stirring a debate though.

    Nash is not Mark Messier. He is not Stephan Matteau, or Brian Noonan.

    This is not 1994, no matter how much many people want it be. You (and everyone else) need to stop drawing parallels. This organization is building from the bottom up.

    I want the Rangers to be a contender for years and years. And so does Torts, so does Glen. Neil Smith is gone. My opinion is that many of those forced trades by the Rangers in the 90s set the organization back 10, 15 years…

    We were one bounce away from the Finals without Rick Nash and suddenly, trading our prized young center is a good idea.

    Why wasn’t it a good idea at the deadline? LOL.

  49. If we didn’t win in 1994, would everyone be convinced that you never trade youth for veterans?

  50. “…they lose nothing defensively without Stepan.”

    That is just flat out wrong…His two way play is what makes him so valuable…

  51. I personally don’t agree with your lines. Callahan isn’t playing 3rd line minutes, Hags probably would. Plus Nash is better on the LW, so they’d have him on the 1st line with Kreider on the second.

    I also don’t know why people think Rick Nash has grit. He’s a big body and he protects the puck, but he never goes into the dirty areas (i.e. in front of the net) outside of holding the puck in the corner. He throws the occasional hit, but when someone challenges him, he doesn’t get as physical (just look at what TJ Oshie did to him).

    Not saying there is anything wrong with that either, he has plenty of other skills that he shouldn’t have to hit that often. But I think people are mislabeling him as a physical player just because of his size and the fact that he knows how to use it to protect the puck.

  52. And Stepan played plenty of PK last year when Pruster was in the box. Blocked a bunch of shots.

  53. agreed.

    btw – I really wish the Rangers signed Chris Neil.

    The best 3rd line forward in the league IMO.

    not to mention my favorite player in the NHL!
    (and the one I most play like! LOL!)
    hits – scores – aggravates

  54. Well when all is said and done with the Nick Rash saga, let’s all just agree that the real loser in any trade is going to be Scott Howson.

  55. “Richards, a consensus No. 1 center…”

    Again, strongly disagree, I see Stepan passing Richards in a couple of years as the number #1. Richards, of course, will be a great mentor to a young Stepan.

  56. The Rangers with the best vision right now are Richards and Stepan. I’d rather not lose Step because he is one of the best playmakers on the team (plus he can finish if he would just shoot more). Were you watching the same Cally-Step-Kreider line that I was during the playoffs?

    What about:

    1) Hags Richards Gabby
    2) Cally Step Kreider
    3) Pyatt Dubi ???
    4) Asham Rupp/Boyle

    If Stepan breaks out, Dubi returns to form, and Kreider performs, I think we have a formidable offense.

  57. therealmikeynj on

    Rather lose anisimov than dubi in any trade.
    No to trading stepan
    Rather trade for Bobby Ryan, or one year for semin, or stand pat.
    Unless of course sather hoses howson as he gets more.desperate.
    If there is one thing slats excels at, it’s trades

  58. Here’s the thing: Sally brings up a great point. If Nash was a *Jew* then I might be inclined to trade Stepan (non-Jew) for him. Making Minyan should be TOP priority for this team.

  59. And unless half of the Rangers’ fowards get AIDS from fans throwing needles onto the ice at the Rock will we see Alex Semin in a Rangers uniform.

  60. I think Del Zaster is in more danger of AIDs, or HI-Five, from the women he associates with on Twitter. His on ice chances could be increased if the Debbie’s move to Camden, NJ.

  61. Actually Cory that was mentioned yesterday as “slapping” but now that I think of it, it’s more like a King Kong type move. Like a Monkey playing the Drums.

  62. You know what Anisimov is gonna get you in trade?

    Another Anisimov. We have the market cornered on below average players already.

  63. Sally

    26/*self-hating Jew*/social worker/Shimona bat Barucha v’Jimmy

    ———————–

    well that explains a lot :P

  64. Frolov actually wasn’t too bad here. He picked up that first injury, which kind of killed him, then his knee exploded. He also had nobody who was on the same page with him. If he had the chance to play with Prospal that year, I think he would’ve been much better off.

    Vinny and him had similar tendencies and they both likes to do the same things offensively (hold the puck in the corner/behind the net then crash to it trying to find either a cutter or get a quick wraparound.

  65. this whole Nash thing should be forgotten. The rangers aren’t going to trade players that Howson wants and Howson isn’t going to trade Nash just to trade him which means Nash isn’t oing to be traded. Nash will have to live with playing for the bluejackets. I like to see in the upcoming season Nash still playing for the bluejackets and have his worst season in his career so his value goes down. Than will see what Howson thinks he is worth.

  66. Nash has averaged around 63 points per year (never quite reaching 80 points) and Stepan only 22 years old has averaged almost 50 points per year and is a much better defensive player and kills penalties. Yet you know that Stepan will not get any better!??! No way do you include Stepan in the deal. Nash is not the mega star people seem to think he is. Dubinsky and a couple mid level prospects ok. Stepan, Kreider, McDonagh even DZ. No way!!!

  67. If Stepan is overrated than so is Nash. Since we are basing his potential on “if he was paired with a top flight Centre on a good team.”

  68. Happy 26th Linda!!!!! 8 more days til Tony goes home!!!!!

    I like Stepan, he’s a young kid with a bright future. But his ceiling isnt that high.

  69. Honestly, Potential Schmential. Who cares. PA Parenteu’s potential and ceiling are way below what he produced last year. That was freakish. Playing with the right people is what matters.

  70. “Playing with the right people is what matters.”

    Reading this must kill Anisimov.

  71. I agree Steps shouldnt be moved for Nash. But a “keeper” implies he’s untouchable. He’s not untouchable.

  72. Yeah, he’s overrated that’s why Bobby Murray, Davy Poille, and Dougie Howser all want +him+ in any deal for Bobby, Ricky, or Sheasy…

  73. Have Murray, Poille, and Howson confirmed with their own mouths that they want him?

    *If* they did want him, does that make them correct in wanting him?

    Exhibit A, B, C, and D: the Montreal Canadiens wanted Scott Gomez.

  74. Stepan does not equate to Scott Gomez. The Habs weren’t in a bidding war for Gomez with anyone. They were the only ones stupid enough to take him at that cost. Just like they took Tomas Kaberle.

    It is multiple GM’s moving proven pieces and demanding Stepan in response. That would mean that they think he can grow into, or is already, a center piece of their team and worth trading someone with a Letter on their sweater for.

  75. That is the point Mister D. We do not know if any of those 3 want Stepan.

    The Canadiens wanted Scott Gomez, they gave up their top prospect at the time McDonagh to get him. I think we can all agree that the GM was wrong to want him.

  76. _That is the point Mister D. We do not know if any of those 3 want Stepan._

    We do not know if any GM in any sport wants any player in any sport and therefore all players should be assumed to have equal trade value until actually traded.

  77. “We do not know if any GM in any sport wants any player in any sport and therefore all players should be assumed to have equal trade value until actually traded.”

    Uuuuuuhhm, No! :)

  78. I wonder if Howson sometimes doesn’t eat breakfast because he demands cereals that he cannot obtain. “I DEMANDED Fruit Loops made of Fish! I will hold out until they are created and delivered”

  79. Of course you would like ir. -Russians- Ukranians LOVE pickled fish!

    (I will not alert Security and put the Building on Ukranian Lockdown once again)

  80. _Uuuuuuhhm, No!_

    Sort of yes. If GMs can’t state interest because of tampering and you’re debunking interest in Stepan because the GMs haven’t confirmed, you’re basically saying we have to assume neutral interest because increased/decreased interest is unprovable.

  81. What happened to the geniuses that wanted to trade Gaborik?

    We can debate Stepan’s worth all day long…

    Anaheim has basically done everything but say that the covet Derek Stepan.

    Howson pretty much has Dubinsky and Artie on the table, and he want’s to double down for Stepan….

    Poille would expect a high ceiling player like Stepan, Kreider, or McD in any deal for WWEber….

    It’s called logic….try it sometime…

  82. So, The Doctor, you’re suggesting that all players are the *control group* in the experiment of NHL Free Agency and Trade Deadlines?

  83. _What happened to the geniuses that wanted to trade Gaborik?_

    Since I routinely call people out for wanting to trade our players, I feel like I should point out that when those Gaborik for Dustin Brown rumors/whispers/whatevers from about 2 years ago were surfacing, I was 100% on board. And that was before Dustin Brown became Cup captaining Dustin Brown; it looks more acceptable in hindsight.

  84. “*assumed to have equal trade value* until actually traded”

    See, that’s where your statement went wrong.

    Anyhow, I will not be sidetracked from my original 2 points.

    1. We do not know if any of those 3 gentleman want Stepan

    2. *If* any of those 3 gentleman want Stepan, that does not mean that those 3 gentleman are correct in their assessments of Stepan.

  85. So then what are you concluding, Tiki. Honestly confused if I’m just missing your point.

  86. Long time reader, first time poster… 2 things:

    1. If Nash comes to NY, he plays with Richards. There’s no doubt about it. He’s not coming here to skate with Anisimov at center.

    2. I agree with your assessment, but loathe reference to the Tony Amonte trade. It’s a terrible example in hindsight. Blasphemy for Rangers fans, in my opinion. There’s only one fact. The trade was made and the Cup was won. Anything else is a guess.

  87. “What happened to the geniuses that wanted to trade Gaborik?”

    I dont know who you are referring to, and Ill kindly inform you that has nothing to do with anything.

    “We can debate Stepan’s worth all day long…”

    Ill kindly tell you that I was not discussing Stepan’s worth. But then again, you ought to already know that.

    “Anaheim has basically done everything but say that the covet Derek Stepan.
    Howson pretty much has Dubinsky and Artie on the table, and he want’s to double down for Stepan…. Poille would expect a high ceiling player like Stepan, Kreider, or McD in any deal for WWEber….”

    Again, we have no confirmation of any of this.

    “It’s called logic….try it sometime…”

    You ought to follow your own advice.

  88. NYR was kidding. Remember after the season when people did not know Gaborik was injured and wanted to trade him? He was being sarcastic about calling those morons geniuses. He’s inferring that idiots who want to trade Stepan are just another brand of idiocy.

    Sorry to speak for you, NYR but as Bobsled teammates I think I have an understanding of you.

  89. Mister D,

    Thanks for the nice discussion. My only point was, IF those 3 GMs want Stepan, that does not make them correct for wanting him. Meaning this… He may turn out be an average player in the NHL or he may turn out to be a star player in the NHL, among other possibilities. Only time will tell whether or not those GMs and we Stepan fans are overrating his talent.

  90. Or in other words, in which I didnt have type a whole paragraph…

    It is flawed logic to say that because 3 GMs want Stepan, then his skills must not be overrated.

  91. Great story Per Djoos! Thanks for sharing! Have a good day, guys! Maybe Slats will give Linda a nice brithday present today!

  92. Chad’s LoHud Yankee chats are painfully boring, not like what we’ve got going on here. It’s not his fault, but an hour can go by on his chat without one original post

  93. Not for nuttin’, but – While ticket prices escalate through the roof, and the Garden stays full, fans actually sympathize with Dolan and Glen in their quest to stay under the cap. Pretty shrewd.

  94. _It is flawed logic to say that because 3 GMs want Stepan, then his skills must not be overrated._

    Sure, its not a predictor of future success, but it is sound logic to say that 3 GMs chasing Stepan validates the high opinion of Stepan many of us have.

  95. Gravy, Swedish Meatballs with Noodles and on

    While I appreciate the guest blogger’s opinion and explanation, the thought of AA centering Nash and Kreider makes me ill. He is a 3-4 center/winger until proven otherwise.

  96. “but it is sound logic to say that 3 GMs chasing Stepan validates the high opinion of Stepan many of us have”

    I disagree entirely. That is not sound logic. It just shows there are 3 other people who share your opinion. It could be that those 3 people are wrong.

  97. It also means, Mister D, that the other 26 GM’s would love to have Derek Stepan (1 already does) but they might not have the assets to trade for him right now.

  98. _I disagree entirely. That is not sound logic. It just shows there are 3 other people who share your opinion. It could be that those 3 people are wrong._

    It doesn’t matter if they’re wrong. If we value a player and others value the player, there’s validation that he’s valued. Not that he’s properly valued, just that he’d valued.

  99. Another way: If I own a stock and 3 people want to buy the stock, that stock has value, completely independent of whether its a good or reasonably priced stock.

  100. Mister D, likewise for your stock analogy. Three people having interest in a stock does not mean that they are correct about the worth of that stock.

  101. I would not trade Stepan. I think the poster is incorrect about him. I for one, believe he has much higher upside than Artem. I like the way they have been building with youth for the long haul. Its not that I dont think a trade for a NAsh or Ryan in necessary, I do but i dont want to take what could be your number 2 center for years to do it. Stepan can pass, score, play D and even has some physicality. AA for a guy his size is underwhelming and should be much more of a force.

  102. _Mister D, likewise for your stock analogy. Three people having interest in a stock does not mean that they are correct about the worth of that stock._

    But the analogy isn’t being made to prove that Stepan is a sure thing, just that he’s a valuable player to have on your roster.

  103. Are we talking about Trading Spaces again?

    “My God! The Dukes are going to corner the entire frozen orange juice market!”

  104. Mister D, again that doesn’t prove that he adds value to your roster, just that some GMs view him as a valuable player. He could actual detract value from your roster.

    the only thing that saying “three guys think he has value” proves is that to those three guys, he has value.

  105. “He was wearing my Harvard tie. Can you believe it? My Harvard tie. Like oh, sure he went to Harvard.”

  106. _Mister D, again that doesn’t prove that he adds value to your roster_

    Of course it does, but we’re arguing different kinds of value. Mine is market/trade and yours is production/on ice.

  107. The proof that Stepan adds value to your roster is in Stepan’s statistics for a Sophomore.

  108. “Mister D, again that doesn’t prove that he adds value to your roster, just that some GMs view him as a valuable player. He could actual detract value from your roster.”

    Is “actual detract” some law term I don’t understand?

  109. Stepan just finished his 2nd year in the NHL. He’s young. It’s obvious he’s going to be one of those high hockey IQ guys as opposed to those high skill/talent guys but he’s got enough talent (particularly adept passing skills) that when the high IQ finally has some experience, his talent he does have will fit into it and he will be a very effective player and leader. His goals will come from knowing where to be rather than out muscling or sniping but he’s a 20 goal guy. His yearly stat like will probably look something like 20-45-65 +15 . IMO though I like Stepan and would prefer him to stay a Ranger (probably because I always root for home grown talent and our draft picks), he’s certainly expendable for Nash. You have to be willing to part with something and I think we’re all in agreement McD and Kreider are off limits.

  110. “…those Gaborik for Dustin Brown rumors/whispers/whatevers from about 2 years ago were surfacing, I was 100% on board”

    Not afraid to admit, I was too!!

  111. So, what’s the consensus? Are we trading Stepan for Nash, or not? I think Sather is awaiting our decision.

  112. _So, what’s the consensus? Are we trading Stepan for Nash, or not? I think Sather is awaiting our decision._

    We’re trading the concept of Stepan for the intrinsic value of Nash.

  113. I wouldn’t move Stepan for Bobby Ryan, but a year from now I’d be pissed at myself for not moving him for Bobby Ryan.

  114. Actually, I’m not sure that I would based upon organizational depth. Sure, we have a lot of guys who play center, but not that many who are any good at it.

  115. “NYR was kidding. Remember after the season when people did not know Gaborik was injured and wanted to trade him? He was being sarcastic about calling those morons geniuses. He’s inferring that idiots who want to trade Stepan are just another brand of idiocy.

    Sorry to speak for you, NYR but as Bobsled teammates I think I have an understanding of you.”

    BINGO BANGO BONGO.

  116. “You had a tub when you were growing up, CCCP? :-)”

    actually no… i wasn’t as lucky as those kids in Harlem ;)

  117. _Actually, I’m not sure that I would based upon organizational depth. Sure, we have a lot of guys who play center, but not that many who are any good at it._

    Right, this is my problem too. Generic Team A should trade Stepan in a package for Ryan but center is our thinnest position. I imagine it would work out poorly in actuality despite making sense on paper.

  118. you are a complete fool. anybody who cannot see the talent in Stepan is clearly hockey ignorant.

    and anyone who looks around the league and sees how many teams are desperate for a good 2nd line center could see that those kind of guys are few and far between. trade Marfar, not Stepan.

  119. PER CARP:

    @rangersreport@ Selanne re-signs with Ducks for 1 year, $4.5M, per Helene Elliott

  120. Hey all, anyone on this Blog seen the movie “Ides of March” (George Clooney, Ryan Gosling)?

    Anyway, watched it last night- and in a very important scene Ryan Gosling’s character meets Paul Giamatti’s character in a sportsbar in Miami (OH) — the scene sets up the eventual downfall of Gosling (the movie’s protagonist) and, importantly, hanging on the wall in the background is a Rick Nash Bluejackets jersey… (included link, although you can’t see the jersey from that angle)

    coincidence, I think not, the movies are trying to tell us that Rick Nash could create the downfall of a more relevant protagonist….that’s right, your NYR…

  121. Not sure if my prior comment came through – go back and watch the movie: Ides of March- important scene that leads to the protagonist’s downfall takes place in a bar with Rick Nash jersey hanging in the background.

    Bad karma.

  122. Hey Marfar, your assesment of Stepan’s talents are completely off base. In a few years Stepan will be one of the best centers in the NHL. Why do you think CBJ would trade Nash straight up for him? F-Nash! Let CBJ rip off someone else, not the Blueshirts!

  123. Every opposing coaching staff sweats over and incorporates into their game plan a way to slow down Derek Stepan. Not.

  124. Players like Stepan will continue to get better season after season with more experience. Coaches do not “yet!” set their game plan up to stop him…

  125. Jonathan, I think Stepan will be a very good player, but he has not shown the explosiveness that coaches would strategize around. Kreider? Sure. Stepan? No.

    Doesn’t mean he won’t be a good player, but he doesn’t seem to have superstar potential.

  126. No smoking in Holland any longer for foreigners. They really screwed that one up royally. We used to start our summer trips in Holland every year when we wuz in our mid 20s. I have some pretty epic stories..I once drove a motorbike right inside one of those red light booth thingies..lol …the world used to be so much fun when debauchery reigned supreme…now just stupidity reigns supreme.

    Regards,
    Tu Ella-Correo(no TS)

  127. You’re correct, Puck. At 225 lbs., you could overlook some things, but he’s often tossed around like a rag doll in the corners. Looked lost in the playoffs. Still a good piece, but really only an advancing pawn on the big board.

  128. HAHAHAHAHA ilb! Bernie Madoff with the Mets money!!! LOL!

    Thanks Puck for your sound reasoning. You’ve done a great job with your new site, your thoughts very insightful. I hope everything is going well for Mrs. Puck, we’re adding new boneheads to the world every month it seems.

    Nobody suggests you trade a young player like Stepan just for the sake of trading him. Sather should trade him, if and only if, he thinks he can better the team by doing so. I do not think adding a player, Nash, whose statistics have declined over each of the last 4 years, along with his substantial cap hit and other assets that would need to be moved, is wise.

  129. The only thing that matters in the NHL is size.

    If you are big and strong, like Nash, you are set.

    If you are smaller, like Smallpan, er… I mean Stepan, you get tossed like a rag doll.

    Nash = Beast. Stepan = Rag Doll.

    Am I missing anything else from the brilliant analysis above?

  130. Matty"DepthNeeded"Boy on

    Hi NYR. I will tell ya this. Last night my 15 yo daughter pulled up Nash’s top 10 goals on YouTube? Man, there are some awful nice goals he’s had.

    He was clearly talented. Perhaps he still is. He would instantaneously be the best player on our team IF he goes back to some of those highlights.

    HOwever, I am not sure I like breaking up the core for even him. We were pretty darn close last year. Just some depth. Some depth.

  131. “Nash = Beast. Stepan = Rag Doll.”

    Avery = GOD

    Prust = irreplaceable

    Lundqvist = Carefree

    Stawhl = Done

    Gaborik = One dimensional

    Torts = Hater

    i think that’s it.

  132. You know that Wolski had some awesome highlight reel goals as well, right? So did Christensen.

  133. Nash is a top 15 player, maybe top 10. But, he’s paid like he’s a top 5….and, the bounty for him is too rich…

    If he were a free agent, of course, I would try to sign him…

  134. Anybody really think that if Stepan were making five million playing for some rat’s ass NHL team that Sather would be lusting after him? There are a plethora of Stepans. Get real and put your thinking into some kind of rational perspective.

  135. Except for Avery, Prust, and the goaltender, CCCP is correct, even in his sophomoric sarcasm.

  136. Wicky© RUPP SMASH!!! on

    Afternoon ILB, Manny, Sallycrepes, and all!!

    So I was going to promote puckandgavel on HF boards but then remembered I can’t even get a miserable follow from them on twitter, so I decided not to.

    sallycrepes??

    I wish we would make a trade so I could put up new line combos

    Manny?

    For the love of whatever you think is valuable…DO SOMETHING ON THE TRADE FRONT SLATS…I HATE SUMMER!!!!

  137. Nash isn’t a top 10 player or top 15. Top 20 at best.

    And that’s the point Lou, Stepan makes $875k a year and puts up 50 points a season. Nash makes $7.8 mil a year and puts up 60 points.

    You are paying $7 million bucks more to add 10 more points. Is that worth it?

  138. C3, you forgot Girardi=overpaid; Rupp=useless; Boyle=dime-a-dozen; Callahan=third-liner; Dubinsky=nose-picker; Richards=Drury 2.0; Del Zotto=Del Zaster; McDonagh=monster.

  139. “watch the Zherdev Youtube highlight reel. You’d think he was Jagr in his prime.”

    Better yet, watch the Grachev one…

  140. You people saying that Nash would be the best player on our roster are, sorry for being mean, idiots. Have you seen Gaborik? He was *3rd* in the *NHL* in goals. Check it out on NHL.COM He scored *41* goals. That’s more than 40. Nash has done it (More than 40) once 8 years ago (with 19 Points coming from PP).

    Then there is the Kreider issue. Kid is LEGIT. Is Nash, at his age and salary better than Kreider?

  141. Wicky© RUPP SMASH!!! on

    After watching the clip matty posted @ 3:06 it still kills me that people make fun of semin for this when he was the clearly the “winner” in the “bongofest”.

    Our “tough” D man staal got absolutely embarrassed

  142. Wicky© RUPP SMASH!!! on

    We should trade staal to carolina for anything based on the bongo principle

  143. In Mark Stawhulstein’s defense, he had multiple concussions at the time of that fight.

  144. Nash is better than Kreider. He’s proved he can get points and goals in the NHL. As much as I love Kreider, he hasn’t proved anything yet.

    I just don’t see the point in trading a two-way center who just turned 22, makes $875k right now (soon to be close to $2-2.5 mil probably) and puts up around 50 points in his first two seasons for someone who is 28, has had declining stat lines the last 4 years, makes $7.8 mil and only put up 30-30-60.

    The return on your investment is already negative the second you make that trade. Even if Stepan doesn’t improve and is a 50 point a season kind of guy, he isn’t going to eat up 10% of your cap space doing so and frees up space for someone else who can score.

  145. Wicky© RUPP SMASH!!! on

    look, while i trust you guys, I’m going to need to see the actual theory posted to prove that 41 is more than 40

  146. 41 is ONE more than 40 Carp. But, that one is usually a season altering, life shattering goal. It has always been that way. I have science (intuition) to prove it.

  147. 20 extra points (Nash vs Stepan production) would mean several more wins/better playoff positioning. In a tight 7 game series, where games are won at the margins, it could be the difference between winning and losing. Take for example Brad Richards reg season production. While 25 goals, 9 were game winners and he clearly took us to the next level.

  148. Wicky© RUPP SMASH!!! on

    manny
    lol

    cccp
    go to hockeyfights.com, click on player tab, in subsequent search box type “j” “a” “g” “r”, then view reslults

    next, repeat first 2 steps, this time instead type in “s” “e” “l” “a” “n” “n” “e”, then view results

    selanne > jagr

  149. “Nash is better than Kreider. He’s proved he can get points and goals in the NHL. As much as I love Kreider, he hasn’t proved anything yet.”

    Ditto. Some people fail to understand that concept, Jonny.

    LOL at green fingered!

  150. wicky

    go to nhl website and look up all time points leaders. now look for selanne…found him? good…now lift your eyes…higher…higher…a bit more…there…you see Jagr? good…

    Jagr > Selanne

    and i love Selanne, btw.

  151. That may not be interpreted the way it was meant to be…

    Ilb > everything

    Mama > bag man

  152. Of course cccp gets to it before me!!

    I seriously have a mancrush on ilb. Like Mariano Rivera. If i were a lady, id wanna have their babies.

  153. any sportswriter who happily accepts Torts’ arrogant, patronizing verbiage is either a masochistic sycophant or is afraid of being shut out of the free food table.

  154. How does Nash get 20 more points than Stepan when he had 8 more than him last year? Assuming Stepan’s continued growth and Nash bumping up a little bit, that’s still only 10 points difference.

    Look if it’s straight up, Nash for Stepan makes sense. But this is giving up Stepan along with at least one more current roster player. So if it’s Stepan and MDZ, you take on almost $6 million more in salary, gain 3 goals, but lose assists/creating on 36 other goals.

    Plus you still have to fill a roster spot and you have $6 million less to do it. If you keep Stepan and Del Zotto, you have $6 million to spend on a scorer, who at that price would most likely put up similar numbers to Nash, if not maybe a little less.

  155. I finally figured out what I want to do with my life. And it was thanks to my convo with Carp on here the other day, when he mentioned Michael Kay’s desire growing up to work for the Yankees. Since my desire growing up has always been to help the Yankees in some way, to contribute to them winning in some fashion, I want to eventually become a sports agent so I can get players to sign with the Yankees for less money than they normally would sign for.

    So Im enrolling in Sports Management Worldwide in Tampa, and when I graduate from that, hopefully I can get into the sports business thru Fern Cuza (Im very good friends with his daughters), and then if need be, Ill put myself thru law school to become an agent. I dont want to be an accountant or bookkeeper anymore, I get no joy out of it.

  156. Cult followers of Jaromir are better known as Jaropeans! Myself and CCCP are Jaropeans! Carp is not a Jaropean!

  157. _Anybody really think that if Stepan were making five million playing for some rat’s ass NHL team that Sather would be lusting after him? There are a plethora of Stepans. Get real and put your thinking into some kind of rational perspective._

    This is either pitch-perfect sarcasm or the point missingest comment of the week.

  158. Thanks Manny. So maybe it wont be so difficult then.

    And if ever become an agent, and of any hockey players, i can get them to sign with the Rangers for less.

    Id be hated by players unions, they hate when players dont take the highest $$

  159. Good luck finding a ballplayer who wants an agent who tries to talk him out of paydays. :-)

  160. Oh and if any boston team came calling, 100 billion dollars would be the demand. Bwahahahahahaha!!

  161. ” Don’t waste the money. Law school sucks.”

    says a lawyer who does nothing all day and gets paid!

  162. That’s right, Tiki. You could be an agent with all the knowledge you have right now. You can make compelling arguments and you have a factual basis and knowledge of the sport. So have at it, hoss.

  163. And good luck finding an athlete who seeks multi-million dollar representation from someone who says Bwahahahahahaha.

  164. I live in a studio with my wife @CCCP@ I don’t know if I would call this, “getting paid.”

  165. Well, you guys are the experts, and I mean that without any snide inclinations. I have only my gut feelings to go on, and the talk has covered many avenues, but the one the alerts me is the talk about speed. Individual and team. It would seem that Rangers are now awash in speed, but seem hesitant to develop it. Stop and think of the teams that really gave Rangers a deep struggle, game in and game out… The speedsters. It kept Rangers penned in their own zone for long minutes of precious time, and subjected LQ to perform above and beyond duty from time to time, and often left him gasping.

    There seems to be two camps at odds with one another about the stress that the team must put out early on and carry thru the season. I’ll be eagerly watching to see if they go for brawn over speed…I hope not.

  166. “Nash is better than Kreider. He’s proved he can get points and goals in the NHL. As much as I love Kreider, he hasn’t proved anything yet.”

    Um, can you explain this logic? Why, because Kreider hasn’t played a single regular season game? Then by using the same logic one can state that Kreider is five times better playoff performer than Nash. Rick Nash- 1 playoff goal. Chris Kreider- 5.

  167. Ive gotta do the Sports Management Worldwide. Lou, id sell the players about the reward of winning a championship in NY, becoming legends forever, and about the positives of playing for a winning team. This is what i really wanna do w my life.

  168. Ilb, the point is Nash is a veteran in this league and has already proven that he can produce year in and year out. Kreider has yet to prove much of anything at the NHL level. Thus, Nash is currently better than Kreider. Pretty fair comment.

    *nobody* is suggesting trading Kreider for Nash.

  169. If you can guarantee them big endorsements, Tiki, they might bite. At one point this year, Tiger Woods had made 3 million from golf, 59 million from endorsements.

  170. Exactly Tiki. Everyone is anointing Kreider as the next superstar. He’s played 0 NHL games and hasn’t proven anything yet. Rick Nash has proven he is good for 60-65 points a year and has done it for 9 NHL seasons.

    I’m not saying Kreider can’t potentially be better than Nash, but as of now until he proves otherwise, we can’t realistically say that Kreider is better than Nash.

    I’d much rather have Kreider though. Bigger and faster and can definitely develop into a better player than Nash when he’s 28.

  171. Wow, how the heck is Tigger still getting that much endorsement money?!

    #30 is greater than all other goalies the past 4 years. He is still better than Quick, but Quick led his team to one of the most dominant Stanley Cup runs in playoff history.

  172. tho, if you think of all the poor kids in Africa…they don’t even have that, Manny! You shouldn’t feel so bad… ;)

  173. You’re right, @CCCP@ Plus they don’t get to share small quarters with my wife! Manny is a lucky Man(ny).

  174. Lou July 12th, 2012 at 4:04 pm e

    any sportswriter who happily accepts Torts’ arrogant, patronizing verbiage is either a masochistic sycophant or is afraid of being shut out of the free food table.

    Lou, you talking to me? I am not masochistic, despite running this blog on a partially-voluntary basis, and the food ain’t free anymore.

  175. something to consider…

    both Nash and Gaborik have played 9 NHL seasons in which they’ve played at least 50 games

    in those seasons, Nash has cracked 60 points 4 times. Gaborik’s done it 6 times.

  176. Not talking to you, Carp. You’ve been critical when it’s called for. I don’t think you happily accept arrogance. Matter of fact, Your post to me is proof. :-)

  177. I understand the idea, but not the logic you are trying to use to prove it. Regardless, my point was that using the same stipulation, since Nash has only played 4 NHL PO games and scored a whooping 1 goal, he hasn’t proven anything in the PO yet. Kreider already played 18 PO games, and scored 5 goals. Has he already proven he is a better PO performer? Another thing about Nash is that the notion that he has proven to be good for 60-65 goals has a sentimental value for Columbus. What he will do from now on is much more important for a team he ends up playing for. But more likely than not, for the next 10 years Stepan ( let alone Kreider) will bring much more points than Nash will.

  178. I’ll bet you Moses was a picker. spend 40 years wandering around the desert with that dry air, tell me you’re not going to have occasion to clean house?

  179. He has. But we’re taking into account the whole body of work. When you talk about production, you can’t simply look at just one or the other, you look at both. Nash hasn’t been to the playoffs much. But every year he puts up his 60-65 points. Kreider has played what, 18 playoff games? Nash has played a total of 678 total games including playoffs.

    I don’t see how anyone can say Kreider is better when he’s played 18 games vs Nash 678 games. It’s way too early to tell. Let’s give the kid a chance to prove himself in the league first.

  180. There was no specific game plan or mixing of personnel to nullify or shut down the kid, Kreider in the playoffs. For Nash, there would be. That said, I personally wouldn’t trade young Kreider’s future for anyone in the NHL as of today. We shall see what we shall see.

  181. Manny:

    Agreed, and if not for Gaborik’s injury shortened seasons, I doubt it would even be up for debate. If Gaborik had been with Minnesota until 2011-12 and was a UFA this off-season, he’d automatically be the marquee free agent on the market.

  182. Devils advocate, though: If Nash is only a 30-goal scorer now, and you believe Kreider will be a 30-goal scorer … I’d rather have Kreider, obviously.

  183. Great point, Lloyd. Gaborik as an uninjured UFA would command a LOT of money on this market. I mean, look at what Parise got.

  184. LMAO Carp!

    ilb, what that proves is that throughout the careers of Nash and Kreider, Nash has in his career, x regular season goals plus 1 playoff goal while Kreider has 5 career goals.

    Nobody is disputing your last 2 sentences, ilb. From “What…. will.” But right now, Nash is better than Kreider. And food for thought, do we know if Kreider can stay healthy through an entire NHL season or multiple NHL seasons? We do know Nash can.

    Again, *nobody* is suggesting trading Kreider for Nash.

    And to use a similar yet different comparison, ilb. Your son may and probably will end up being a better doctor than you (I say that because he had you growing up to teach him), but *right now*, youre a better doctor than he is.

  185. I give Gaborik credit for buying into Torts’ system as well as he could. A lot of primadonnas in his class would have refused, sulked, or caused a major stir.

  186. Exactly, Jonny…Nash hasn’t played in the playoffs, Kreider hasn’t played in regular season. You can’t say who is better in either PO or regular season until the sample is comparable.

    Carp, do you think Stepan is the reason the trade is on hold?

  187. ilb, LMAO!!! Though I dont have any clue what that 2nd thing is.

    On the other topic, thats not fair. You must speak of the entire career. Nash has 600+ games in his career and x points. Kreider has 10+ games in his career and has y points. We dont even know if Kreider can stay healthy for the majority of one NHL season, let alone multiple NHL seasons.

    For right now, at this very moment in time, Nash is better than Kreider.

    ****Disclaimer: Please do not use my #30 discussion against me right now, because I fully understand #30 has been the best and most consistent goalie in the NHL the past 4 years.

  188. Sorry, before Carp bans me, olecranon is a medical term of what sticks out behind your elbow.

  189. Also, in the end, its all about sample sizes. Nash has 4 playoff games and Kreider has 10+ under his belt. Those arent adequate sample sizes to determine future playoff success for either.

    I think the world of Kreider (though he comes from Boston College), but there is no sample size to determine his success at the NHL level.

    There is a large enough sample size to determine Nash’s success at the NHL level.

    Honestly, Ive actually made myself tired of this discussion, mainly because I dont want the guy and his cap hit.

    I should start talking about something I enjoy talking about. Boston. Did anyone see that fool Bob Kraft’s video online? He’s 71 and dating a 32 year old (fairly grotesque) model, only a year after his wife’s death. Way to stay classy and honor your late wife, Krafty, by robbing the cradle.

  190. You said it, Tiki. In order to make a comparison, Nash needs to be compared to someone who played the same amount of NHL games. Not to Kreider.

  191. Kraft went to confession and told the priest he was dating a model 40 years younger than him. The priest said, “you didn’t say ‘bless me, father,’ are you a Catholic?” Kraft said no. “Then why are you telling me this,” asked the priest. Kraft replied: “I’m tellin’ EVERYbody!”

  192. E3 (pimp's angel) stay thirsty my freinds on

    Gluteus Maximus was a great roman emperor even though he was a big assen …

  193. Nash’s cap hit is the least of their worry, tommy. And, undoubtedly, he will make this team substantially better. Unless it takes too many pieces to go the other way. That may potentially make it worse.

  194. Fair enough, ilb. Is it fair to say that Nash is a proven commodity, and Kreider is not?

    Again, I want Kreider over Nash and his cap hit.

  195. of course Nash is a proven commodity. he’s played 9 years. Kreider’s yet to dress in a regular season game, that’s why it’s unfair to compare them.

  196. Lou, that is so so so SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I was just watching an episode of a TV show, Raising the Bar, with Mark Paul Gosselaar earlier today on Netlifx, and this old guy told that joke! Just today I heard that joke for the first time. Now, it’s 2 times!!!!!

  197. Well, Lloyd, Ill respond with this. There is no comparison because Kreider isnt an everyday NHL player yet. Nash is better by way of being an everyday NHL player for the past x seasons.

  198. Sorry, Tik. Won’t tell that one again. But, so long as we’re talking confessions, an 80 year old house builder confessed that he’d spent 60 years stealing lumber, tools, nails, and concrete. The priest said, “Wow! 60 years of blatant thievery! I’m going to ask you to make a Novena.” “I still got a lot of stuff left over,” said the penitent, I’ll make anything you want.”

  199. he’s better because he’s already proven he can play in the NHL everyday for x seasons and put up y points per season. This is all just semantics. I see your and ilb’s point. Its all just semantics. A proven commodity IMO is always better than an unproven one.

  200. People should stop worrying about Sather and Dolan’s player spending. You’re the ones who keep this team prosperous and the arena filled. Let them figure out how to spend some of the dollars you shove into their pockets.

  201. sure. maybe I’ll encourage them to spend even more money so they can recoup costs by asking me to shove a few more dollars into their pockets.

  202. I’ve watch Kreider play. You can’t say he hasn’t proven anything at the NHL level.

    I think his game is suited for the NHL. We will see.

  203. 2 games away from the stanely cup, young core learns what it takes now to go to the next level, can we see what that level is before we add a suspect contract for a above marginal player.

  204. Marfar – good post.

    While I agree with The “lack of speed assessment” I believe Stepan’s best days are ahead. He is smart, heady, agile, has great vision, plays sound defense, passes well, has a decent shot. He certainly could benifit by becoming more physical. I mentioned in a previous thread that I recently watched him in a replay ofthe championship game of the World Juniors and he was quite impressive. I think speed and quickness can improve with experience, drills and effort. I think Torts ( and perhaps Slats as well) see a potential first line center in Stepan. Not sure myself – but I think it is possible. No one was more down on Stepan after the playoffs than me. But, time has softened my disappointment. This is a really tough call. I think at the end of the process, if necessary, Sather will do what has to be done.

  205. If you are looking for proven consistent production, you go with Nash over Kreider every time.

    I was referring to the person who said Kreider is better than Nash. If its based off his college game against kids, that’s not even close to NHL competition.

    Yes he was great in college and had a decent playoff run, but Nash has proven for 9 years he is a top 25 player in the league. You can’t say Kreider is better. Does he have more potential? Yes. Is Nash a more proven performer? Yes. But until you can check out their head to head stats in current form, you can’t say Kreider is better.

  206. did you guys see what that Janssen of the Devils said on the radio? … wonder if the NHL will crack down or wimp out, because in my mind, they suspended Avery for as much … he also said, in not so many words, that the Devils lost in the finals because of how hard it was to beat the Rangers, but he said it more colorfully.

  207. and, ilb, I have no idea if that is holding it up, or if he’s even been discussed lately between Sather and Howser.

  208. I contributed as much to the Devils’ playoff run as Cam Janssen did.

    Now that VPG seems to have returned from whence he came, Janssen must surely have reclaimed his crown as the NHL’s worst player.

  209. Hockey is such a great sport but it is difficult to rate players and there contributions to a team without disagreement from rater to rater. For instance, people don’t mind moving Dubinsky because of his ” lack of production”. We disregard the other positive attributes he brings to the team and dismiss him as an underachiever because his numbers aren’t “where they should be” – so “let’s get rid of him”. Conversely, we have an oppurtunity to acquire (for the cost of money and cap space alone) 10-foot pole Semin, or better referred to perhaps as the “anti-Dubinsky – a numbers producer who lacks other attributes which would make him a more complete player.

    I guess as the GM, you analyze your team, evaluate the collective strengths and weakness, and base your acquisitions and subtractions by answering the question “who fills the gaps better for my team, is it a Dubinsky or a Semin?

  210. Janssen is Plan B if the big deal for Tostitos doesn’t come off. Holmgren’s price is just too high right now.

  211. “There’s a cream with real diamonds in it…I can actually smear diamonds on my face, and it’s only $400 a tub! That’s like, what? A million diamonds for $400? A million f*cking diamonds!” – Lindsay Bluth

  212. Carp – to be fair to Janssen, he was setup for that. Was definitely dumb to say, but that was setup, he was making a joke out of it, and it wasn’t said how many seem to be taking it. It was pretty much a “convo with his buddies”.

    He’s still not all that smart.

  213. Janssen’s an ass.

    Hey, let’s mix it up: JoePa is a piece of carcillo. Period.

  214. Czechthemout!!! on

    Trade Stepan! He’s done nothing so far in his long NHL career!

    Nash Sucks! He’s only one of 4-5 players that have scored 30 or more goals in each of his last 5 seasons, playing for the worst franchise in the league, with such notable centers as Manny Malhotra.

    Brandon ” it’s just pain” Prust and his absence is the reason the Rangers will stink and not make the playoffs this year. You can’t lose a Hart Trophy/ Selke trophy candidate like this and not suffer the consequences.

    Sather’s been ” somewhat aggressive” in free agency. As a fan, I surely do appreciate that he and Torts have gone out and signed every 4, 5 , and 6 liner available in UFA so far. I wonder if part of this is Glennie trying to prove a point that he has signed 11 players now with the money he would have had to pay for one irreplaceable Brandon Prust.

    Howdy doodie

  215. Matty"DepthNeeded"Boy on

    Carp, your 7:12 comment is quite true. You can stat yourself to death on some of these players. Stats are not even close to the whole picture.

    Fact of the matter is if you play a lot of PK time, the odds are it might affect the amount of goals you score. Or, if you are always on the PP, your point totals should be higher. Or, if you play on the PP unit often, but the unit has 4 other guys that s&ck, you point total might not be as high as it could be. Etc, etc. Many, many factors.

    If you’re a goalie with a great defensive system in front of you, your goal against may (should) be lower. If you’re a goalie with a defense that is not as tight, the same guy may give up more goals. Brodeur under MacLean’s system was over 3.5 goals a game. The same guy, later in the season was hovering around 2.0.

    Bottom line: can’t look at stats only to evaluate a player. It’s a smaller piece of the pie than you might think.

  216. Czechthemout!!! on

    Trade Stepan! He’s done nothing so far in his long NHL career!

    Nash Sucks! He’s only one of 4-5 players that have scored 30 or more goals in each of his last 5 seasons, playing for the worst franchise in the league, with such notable centers as Manny Malhotra.

    Brandon ” it’s just pain” Prust and his absence is the reason the Rangers will stink and not make the playoffs this year. You can’t lose a Hart Trophy/ Selke trophy candidate like this and not suffer the consequences.

    Sather’s been ” somewhat aggressive” in free agency. As a fan, I surely do appreciate that he and Torts have gone out and signed every 4, 5 , and 6 liner available in UFA so far. I wonder if part of this is Glennie trying to prove a point that he has signed 11 players now with the money he would have had to pay for one irreplaceable Brandon Prust.

    Howdy doodie Howson has now misread the market four times for his disgruntled star player. Didn’t get what he wanted in January. Got his best offer at the deadline and turned it down because he thought he was trading 99,11,4 all in one. Than the draft. Sorry Howson, wrong again! And than it was supposed really really heat up after not so future Ranger, Parise signed. But alas, Howdy Doodie was wrong again. So now the most incompetent GM in the game waits while every day, the value of his star player erodes. Amazing how this clown still has a job.

    This my brief summary of UFA so far. One more thing;

    Walter, vusz machst ti?

  217. CCCP, LMGluteusOff. Dont know if that how you spell gluteus maximus. Came from the joke ilb made about his son. I wonder if ilb would say that to his son?!! LOL

    Jonny, Not always, but as a general rule of thumb, I go with the proven commodity over the unproven one. The proven commodity is better than the unproven one.

    There are very very few sure things when it comes to prospects. Thats the reality.

    But like everyone will agree, the Rangers are building for the current as well as the future, so I wouldnt give up a Kreider or a Stepan for Nash and his cap hit.

    If all it took was Dubinsky, Id do it in a heartbeat. He’s had enough time and has done little with it.

    Hey, lets get Peter Gammons and all of his Boston buddies in the media to prop up Brandon Dubinsky as a salvageable player with a high upside in need of a change of environment because he just couldnt cut it on the big stage. Then we can get gifted Nash for Dubinsky.

  218. I second that on JoePa … and I was among those who thought he was a P.O.C. before this while Sandusky thing broke.

    JoePa is now a disgrace.

  219. Czechthemout!!! on

    Tiki

    Based on the absolutley ridiculous contracts given to all the mediocre to crap players so far, Nash’s insane contract looks like a bargain.

  220. Peter Gammons wouldn’t know Dubinsky if Dubinsky loogied on him.

    … FWIW, I think there’s a pretty good chance Dubinsky has a bounce-back year.

  221. Dubinsky will net 20+. Kreider will net 30+. Together they net 50+. Eat that Mr. Nasham

  222. LOL Carp. Youd may be surprised by this, but Gammo knows about the other Boston teams, including the Bruins. Little, but he follows them all.

    Maybe Dubi will have a bounceback year, Im an eternal optimist, so Ill hope he does if he’s with us next year.

    True, czech, but we have 2 young kids with plenty of upside for little money. Like I said, Dubinsky for Nash is done in a heartbeat.

  223. Higher than average chance, Carp. Ditto Stepan, who may improve in his third year. And AA, whom everyone is throwing under the bus, will likely continue his solid defensive play and be used by Torts in different situations. And may score a few more. All for manageable $1.87M cap hit

  224. I know, Carp, you do not what’s going on between Sather and Howson. Was just wondering what your thoughts were. I have a strange suspicion that if Howson didn’t insist on Kreider, McD and Co in February, he would’ve been able to get Stepan then. The team looked healthy and ready to make a serious run. Sather may’ve been willing to take that hit and give up Stepan plus prospects and picks then because he felt they had a very good chance. It’s all maybe off the table now. It’s the whole new year to go, uncertainty of the season, the new CBA, realignment etc. Sather now needs, and has more time, to evaluate what’s in the future. Stepan may not be available anymore.

  225. I feel terrible for JoePa’s decisions. I always defended the guy, I wish he had another chance to go back in time and do what was right.

  226. just so we’re clear. That was not meant to defend him in any way. Ive always admired him, because he’s Italian and because he has the same face as my grandmother. I just feel bad he did what he did…or he didnt do what he shouldve done.

  227. If I had a stumbling franchise and a $7 million+ guy like Nash who wanted out, and who made it public, I’d be happy to get a Kreider back (with an entry level contract, worth a little over a million) and someone like Dubi. Slats, thankfully, won’t ever let this happen.

  228. I didn’t know who JoePa was until the whole story about that animal Sandusky came out. But it sounds like the report that came out Thursday is pretty compelling. If that’s the case, JoePa was more worried about his name and his legacy than about well being of those kids. I’m with Carp.

  229. JoPa had the best rep (a legend) and longest tenure of any college football coach. He blew it all in one fell swoop.

  230. ilb, if he wanted to protect his name and his legacy, he wouldve done the right thing. As this guy on the espn boards says “Paterno could have made himself a hero, and even bolstered his place in history. Instead he made a brutal mistake, and will never be looked at the same way again. What a shame!.” He was protecting Penn State, when he shouldve protected the children.

  231. I hope he’s burning in hell.

    Walter, Howser howsoned the whole thing … Nash never went public with his request to be traded. Howser did.

  232. _If that’s the case, JoePa was more worried about his name and his legacy than about well being of those kids._

    Yup, and look at it this way: There’s some really nice guy old guy out there, the guy everyone wanted to believe Paterno was, whose grandson was raped because Paterno did nothing when he had an absolute obligation to do something. He’s not as bad as Sandusky, obviously, but he protected his own legacy at the expense of children and I just wish he were alive to deal with the backlash. Paterno, and the patently ridiculous notion of public sympathy for his legacy, can both take a blind elbow to the head from Chris Neil.

  233. _I hope he’s burning in hell._

    Just a heads up, but if Carp sees that, he might nail you for cursin … oh, hey Carp.

  234. Not going to argue there, Tiki. I don’t know his true motives. But I do know that I see those sexually molested and abused children at work much more than I’d like to. And I see the suffer physically, and more so emotionally, for years. Their lives, and sometimes the lives of their future families, are ruined. I also go to court to present the medical evidence. And I listen to some details. Those guys are worse than rapists, those are predators. They plan, sometimes for years. And they wait. And they make sure the kid stays quiet. Some of those stories never come out. Sandusky, hopefully, will have more profound legacy than JoePa. In a sense that his story will teach the parents how to look for any possible signs of something coming, and how to be honest with their kids, and how to teach them to be honest, and not keep “secrets”. Anyone who has children, I suggest follow the story. Don’t assume your child is invincible. Learn the signs and how to prevent it. As for JoePa- I don’t care what his motives were. Anyone who covers that up for whatever reason, is a disgrace.
    Sorry for the long post.

  235. Howser (and his career) is skating on such thin ice that he cannot let Nash go without making a LARGE local splash. He demanded McDonagh or DelZotto PLUS Stepan or Haglin, PLUS Dubie or Kreider. He may be gone before Nash is.

  236. can’t blame him for trying to hit a grand slam with the best player in CBJ history … and don’t disagree that he’s sure messed it up in a number of ways … but why would ownership let him go this far then fire him? I mean, he probably could have traded Nash 10 or 12 times already. Why would an owner allow that, then decide to fire the guy?

  237. I lost a friend very close to me from suicide due to a sex crime years earlier, and I also have 2 other very very close friends that were victims of child sexual abuse.

    To be clear, I do 100% agree. There is no excuse for him covering up and allowing the abuse to continue for more than a decade. None at all.

    I was just pointing out that he was trying to protect the legacy of Penn State University, not his own name or legacy.

  238. and I’m not arguing with you, Tiki, but we don’t know what he was protecting. We only know that he knew what was going on, and not only let it go on, but helped facilitate it. He made Sandusky welcome, even with the young boys, even after he knew what Sandusky was doing.

    burn in hell.

  239. Paul in sunrise on

    Congrats marfar. Lots of activity on a day when the big news was nonranger news.

    No stepan for Nash. I want Nash but think Semin is the better option. No to Ryan. I have always said no to Doan but maybe yes for two years.

    Rangers are in a win now window. Nash makes sense to acquire. Dubi hags miller mccolgan and a first. Hate to do it. But win now window. I honestly don’t think a dynasty is possible based on free agency. Look at the pens. Clearly pound fr pound the most talented team. They won once in four years. You win your cup when you can. The best rangers are getting older. Gabby hank BRich. Win now. That was the thought in 94. I will be just as happy with a one off winner than a dynasty of very good but not good enough teams.

  240. if they were really in win-now mode, that would be a pretty weak package for a guy who could help, you know, win now.

  241. You know what I think Howson’s best possible move is, from a Howson perspective? Trade Nash not for a package, but a singular potential impact player (and a low impact prospect or pick or two for balance, I guess). Focus on guys like Kreider or Dougie Hamilton or Couterier or ideally, Couture. Big name young players that average fans will have heard about and super fans will lose their minds over rather than massive packages. Basically get a dollar, not four quarters, and declare that player your immediate new face of the franchise. Best play for him as GM, probable best play for the franchise.

    (On a lower level, what the Mets did with Beltran at the deadline. They didn’t get 3 minor leaguers, they got one big name, potential high impact minor leaguer.)

  242. and there’s not a player alive that guarantees they win anything right now, but if that player was available and they really were in win-now (they’re not) why wouldn’t you give up McDonagh and Kreider?

    Repeat. They are not in “win-now” mode.

  243. Ok, Carp. Its just my opinion. And i have some reasoning behind the notion of him protecting PSU, but i have no desire to piss you off with it, especially on a topic we all agree on.

  244. Paul in sunrise on

    Joe pa deserved bad publicity. The image I have was those students blindly worshiping him. Supposedly smart kids at a very smart school. I wonder if those kids have finally learned a lesson. It’s dispicable. My wife prosecutes sex crimes. THe stories are horrible. Keep you up at night bad. There is not a punishment in the world that can give those victims their lives or youth back.

  245. Paul in sunrise on

    I don’t like any package for Nash to be honest. But all this talk about building through the core and draft and yada yada. At some point you make a deal and win he cup. Because the team as is is really good but can they get over the top wohout another bone fide goal scorer. Today’s game is impossible make back to back or dynasty teams. I know you won’t put a package together, Carp, but can a package be put together that you think us fans will accept. Or that howsen will accept because I just don’t see it. Nash won’t be traded. They will acquire more talent and not rebuild but recommit.

  246. “McD Kreider, Stepan and Stahwl for MalKING?”

    Not even a little. Building a great team, not a team with a great player.

  247. _At some point you make a deal and win he cup._

    I’m waiting for the package that is part salary dump, part franchise rebuild. Like if Colorado decided they were better off getting 2 prospects and a 1st rounder for Stastny or, in the ideal-but-this-will-never-happen world, an offer sheet that leverages future picks. I really don’t like the idea of subtracting from the pro level core to (in theory) improve the pro level core.

  248. Paul in sunrise on

    If not win now then win when?
    Btw IMO fwiw gabby best free agent signing ever.

  249. Here’s my take on Janssen and, despite thinking about the proper way to phrase it for a bit, I imagine its going to still come out wrong … Given the discussion I read, I think there’s atleast a chance it was just terrible timing and he got nailed. They were discussing how athletes will use anything to gain an advantage when talking trash and I’d really love to know if his answer would have been “yeah, they’d get there ass kicked” to more or less any out of the norm scenario the radio host put out there. “If you found out he was nailing Kim Kardashian”, “if you found out his wife was cheating on him”, “if you found out he can’t swim”, “if you found out he’s writing a science fiction novel”, etc, etc, etc. Its not something I would get trapped in, because I’m a socialist uber-liberal like Manny and Sally, but its something that I could see a less savvy, less contentious person getting trapped in. No matter what, he’s still responsible for what he said and has explaining and apologizing to do, but if he does become the face of sports homophobia, I hope its because he’s an ass who truly deserves to be that face and not a guy who couldn’t care less about sexuality and gave a horrific off-the-cuff answer.

  250. I think Gomez signing has something to say about it, Paul. It turned into Gaborik and McDonagh. And NO Gomez.

  251. See, I already hate my answer. “I think there’s atleast a chance it was just terrible timing and he got nailed” should have been closed to “I think he’s a guy who could have just gotten trapped by a question” or something like that.

  252. They are not 1 player away from the Cup. Nothing comes easy for the Rangers. They have to work for everything they get. Every single last inch of ice. They are the hardest working bunch of guys in the League.

  253. I hope Cam Janssen’s face never becomes the face of anything.

    ilb, is Asham now part of the No Gomez deal since he replaced Prust? just asking.

  254. _They are the hardest working bunch of guys in the League._

    Wouldn’t it be fun to know who, objectively, the hardest working guy in the league really is? Its probably like Daymond Langkow or someone disappointing like that.

  255. “Sorry. Got a little distracted doing the repeater”

    “Yea. That’ll happen”

  256. Mister D, a lot of NHL coaches (Laviolette, DeBoer, Bylsma come to mind) have said that the Rangers are really the hardest working team in the League.

  257. No, Carp, Asham is a juicy steak in a doggy bag that you forgot under your car seat and found three days after from that trade….

  258. Has anyone listened to Jenssen’s “interview”? I just read the quotes. Sounds like he and that station are perfect marriage.

  259. It sounds like $4.5M is an ongoing FA rate this year. Doesn’t matter if it’s a one-year, or multi-year deal. Doesn’t matter if you’re 27, 40, 42. Anything else is either a two-way deal or $100M over 13 years.

  260. _Mister D, a lot of NHL coaches (Laviolette, DeBoer, Bylsma come to mind) have said that the Rangers are really the hardest working team in the League._

    Sure, absolutely, but I imagine over the course of any season, a half dozen teams and several dozen players are called the hardest working. I’d just love to know who really is.

  261. Underscores on both sides of the quote, CCCP.

    _This would be in italics if I added another underscore at the end

  262. eddie eddie eddie on

    In Sandusky’s jail, inmates are singing Pink Floyd’s lyric “hey teacher, leave those kids alone”…over and over…sometimes all night long….he is a dead man

  263. _Epitaph on the Formula F-1 driver’s tomb: “Was born and died because of hole in a rubber”_

  264. McQueary should rot in hell alongside Paterno. Can you imagine this coward witnessed a child being raped by Sandusky in the showers and he failed to intervene? If he had intervened forcefully to terminate the rape instead of turning away, Sandusky would have been behind bars long ago and many less victims would have been subsequently violated. McQueary, you are a yellow coward.

  265. I think what Howson needs is for Nash’s list to include some teams desperate for his services. He wants to go to teams that have a shot at winning. By definition those teams are not desparate and what they’d give up for Nash is not the home run package Howson is looking for. Nash put the guy in a bad spot.

  266. I’m now reached a point, when I want to puke every time I hear or see name Nash!

  267. Stanger Nation on

    It would be great if Doggie Hoser and the BJ’s never traded Nash, but kept speculating every season

  268. Is Nash even still available? Has anyone talked to Howson since free agent market opened? Is Howson even alive?!

  269. Stanger Nation on

    Is Nash alive if he is available?

    if Doggie Hoser is available, is he alive?

    Does Columbus have a local paper with a hockey beat writer?

  270. Stanger Nation on

    Breaking News:

    Teemu Selanne tells Ducks he will play again next season

    Teemu Selanne’s most-excellent, age-defying adventure was officially renewed for another installment. By Selanne. The forward who *led the Ducks in scoring last season with 66 points*, the man who turned 42 on July 3

  271. What’s with all the gorilla clutching, waltzing and flailing with this supposed new group of tough guys? Nicky Fotiu, Beck, Kocer, and even little Domi (just to mention NYRs) would have each given that Ozark Janssen a tattoo lesson that he wouldn’t soon forget.

  272. By trading step & dubinsky for Nash the salaries will wash out eventually. Step scoring 50 ish pts will get him $3m+ salary, along with dubi 4.2 it would wash out with Nash’s 7.6m. Nash should give us 30 goals and potentially 40goals. We’d betting on 30-40 goals and some playoff wins which Step Dubi have not delivered and will not, so that’s the move to make IMHO.

  273. _Wouldn’t it be fun to know who, objectively, the hardest working guy in the league really is?_

    If you’ve watched any game broadcast in the last seven years, you’d know it’s Crosby. It’s stated as if it’s an indisputable fact so often, it must be true.

  274. If Nash had been acquired at the trade deadline and the Rangers then won 10 playoff games, would Nash have been given the credit for earning those wins that Stepan and Dubinsky (or who ever else was dealt) couldn’t deliver?

  275. for anyone who’s interested in Cam Janssen’s appearance on some internet radio show, the full thing is available here (be aware that there’s plenty of profanity throughout):

    http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/7/12/3155651/cam-janssen-interview-video-devils

    I watched the whole thing and don’t have a problem with anything he said. Like, the guy certainly won’t be offered admission to MENSA anytime soon, but he’s just a typical jock chewing the fat. No story here, vultures, sorry.

  276. Fierce NO to Doan. We don’t need another overpaid Cally. We have plenty of leadership, intangibles, locker room’s nice guys and 2/3 borderline players for less than 5mil +. Most of all he is not solving our main problem- guaranteed high scoring. NONONONONONONO!

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