Some interesting discussion yesterday. The Devils hired another DeBoering coach. Chris Osgood hung ‘em up. Steven Stamkos re-upped for five years in Tampa Bay (what a surprise, no offer sheets).
Here we talked about Brandon Dubinsky and Ryan Callahan, too, and their arbitration dates and contract discussions. We talked a bit about Steve Eminger, and what will reportedly be his re-signing with the Rangers. We re-visited Mark Messier’s departure in 1997. And, among other things, we talked about the Islanders and whether you guys want them to stay in New York (state). The poll over on the right suggests you do.———>
Bless your little hearts, we were approaching 500 comments late into a hot July evening.
So, I’m just wondering if anybody has a particular topic you want to discuss in these ever-slowing dog-days of summer. And here’s what I’m asking. If you have a topic you want me to bring up for discussion, please e-mail it to me at rcarpini@lohud.com, and maybe I can put it up as a post in the coming days. If you suggest it in the comments, though, it will be talked-out by the time I get around to making a post out of it.
So please use e-mail. Thanks.
405 Comments
Mornin’, heads…...........
I have a topic. How come the “greats” from the late 70’s, early 80’s never EVER! get any recognition from “The Worlds Most Famous Arena”?
Players like Gresh, Shoot the puck Barry, J.D., Nicky Fotiu, The Maloney Boys…......
They get pawned out for viewing parties.
Wow, 516 responses on a nothing day in the middle of July. Granted, there was some general NHL news. What a blog.
Discussions for future…I will send an e-mail
For today? Is Chris Osgood a hall of famer ?
I say yes, but only because the hall of fame for all the major sports has been very cheapened over the years…(especially baseball)...
The guy won 3 Stanley Cups (bit might have been a back up one of those 3 times), over 400 games (top 10 all time), and two Jennings trophies (whatever that is, but sounds impressive)
according to brooks in the post. dubi asking for 5.25 mil per season. if thats the case go to arbitration. the kid has completely fallen off the wagon. no way should he get that and no way will arbitrator grant him that. i am so sick of dubi and his crap. “i want the rangers the rangers want me he said on breakup day”. then act like it and realize you are not a 5.25 mil per season guy
trade this loser. im with ORR HE IS KNOWN NOW BY ME AS DUBLOWSKY
Im with you too, eric!
Dublowsky.
That felt good.
EVERY PLAYER SHOULD WANT TO PLAY IN NY FOR BELOW MARKET PRICE!!!
eric – That’s given you believe everything that Brooks prints. I, for one, do not. Brooks, in my estimation, is being a bit disingengous with his reporting. What I could see is Dubinsky’s agent using $5.25 million as a starting point for arbitration, which is a totally logical conclusion to reach, considering that the hearing is less than a day away. The name of the game in Arbitration is to ask high and settle for the middle. Rangers say $3.5 million. Dubinsky says $5.25 million. Arbitrator rules $4.(chose a decimal lower than 5) million. The real question, as Brooks mentions in his article, is whether the Rangers do one or two years.
It’s beyond me why so many Ranger fans are so quick to bag on Dubi. The guy has been exactly what Ranger fans have pined for since the days of Mike York: Hard-hitting, high-skilled hard-working home-grown forward who can play all three positions, and above all, wants to be a Ranger. I also don’t get this so-called ‘consistency’ beef that continues to be bantered around here like gospel. If there’s one issue of consistency with Dubinsky, it’s that he consistently gets better. Now that’s not a problem in my book.
Good morning, boneheads!
I read Brooks’ article this morning, but didn’t want to link it to the blog because I knew it’d create a thunderstorm….
So before we chew Dubinsky’s MZA off- RELAX. Don’t internalize anything, don’t pay attention to any numbers Brooks posted. It’s all part of negotiation, pure business side of it. Let them sort it all out.
By the way, with all the bizarre banter that goes on here(and the semi-frequent South Park references), I was a bit let down yesterday when I read through all 516 comments and not one person mentioned this in reference to the blog post, “Do you want Fishsticks, or don’t you?:
“Do you like fishsticks?”
“Yeah.”
“Do you like putting fishsticks in your mouth?”
“Yeah.”
“What are you, a gay fish?”
Inappropriate? Maybe. Hilarious? Definitely.
There you go, phil!
Phil- there you go was in reference to your previous post, not this one :-)
I can never understand why fans take contract negotiations so personal. its a business. Dubi should try to get whatever he can. very few guys have 20 year careers. most guys earning time is around 5 to 10 years. try to get what you can, while you can.
Phil, highly skilled? Dubinsky? You must be mistaken for another Dubinsky.
The guy falls down easily without contact, therefore, cant stay on his skates, he loses the puck quite often, therefore, he cannot stick handle and he cannot go tape to tape with the biscuit, therefore, he cannot pass effectively.
And consistency, you want consistency? How about hitting the back of the cage more then 5 times in the last 25 games of the season?
He’s not even worth $4 million per let alone $5…......
Does anyone want to bet on how long DeBoer lasts in NJ? I say Christmas…..That is, if he doesn’t pee off Kovalchuk.
Puckdaddy said that Osgood is a hall of famer. That’s good enough for me!
Let’s talk about hits to the head and concussions and why fighting is necessary to keep hockey awesome.
Manny- Carp said e-mail it to him.
Post.EMAILHey ilb – I was just joking around though. I didn’t want to bother Carp with my stupidity.
Also – ilb – nice use of
strikethrough, bold andred fontin one post!I was kidding too, Manny…Forgot to add :-).
bulldog,
Exactly. Very few players get the lifetime contracts. Dubinsky knows he’s not that good, but why not ask for the sun, the moon and the stars and settle for something a little less.
IMO the bigger story is that Stamkos got 5 years. Many other cornerstone players have taken longer deals after their ELC expires that not only lower the cap hit but anchor them with their original franchise (cough, Flyers, cough). A deal that expires when he’s 26 indicates that he’s going to the test the market. So much for loyalty.
Hey, can you get
:-)in red?Guess so!
CTB- I also think that Whyzerman is trying to be a bit too cautious. He sounds like he is uncertain as to which way the new CBA goes. Stamkos’ agent is trying to be too smart too…What if the new CBA moves the UFA age up by a couple of years? Then Stamkos remains RFA at 26 again.
ilb,
Even if the raise the UFA age I would think the players would still fight for the 6 years in the NHL threshold or a likewise corresponding move. For example if the service time clause was raised to say 7 or 8 years while the UFA age was raised as well that would still cover very few players given that so few players start in the NHL at 18 or 19.
Good morning, Sally!
ilb, do you have a lot of Boneheads coming up this weekend?
Regarding Dubinsky…
Even if it goes to arbitration, they can still work out a new contract afterwards and get him signed longer term. I don’t see Dubi getting $5 mil in arbitration, so i still wouldn’t be surprised to see an 11th hour deal before the hearing.
i’ll reserve my next comments about Dubi until after the hearing, if it happens.
And for all the contract haters out there… every signing the Rangers make is scrutinized. I mean really… when you’re saying you would have given Sauer $300k less, and Anisimov was overpaid by about $500k it’s just getting ridiculous.
It’s not our money, who cares.
The Rangers are in a good negotiating position for Dubinsky, as a team is with any RFA
If they sign him for the teams probable amount, it will be for $3.5$3.8 for one or years-If they go to arbitration, he will get less then $4 mio for one year
-They will not sign him under his goal amount for years/$$$ (anywhere near $5 mio)
-They will not lose arbitration, and if they did, they can always walk away. (i.e. Zherdev)
Larry Brooks is wrong just as often as he is right, maybe even more. I do not trust anything he reports.
All this talk about Dubi, What about our future captain? Whats the hold up with Cally?
Define a lot, Carp. Good amount, but less than I’d like. Some you’ve met, some you haven’t. Can’t tell the names, part of a deal. We will have to guess upon arrival. Even mama doesn’t know who is coming. I think…..
duby was worth more to us last season than gabork was. and gabby makes way more money. he established career highs in goals, points, and keeps getting better with every season. he dd it last year without jagr, which was a knock on him his firt 2year. he sticks up fr teammates, hes developed more of anedge to his game and is no question, one of the leaders on this team. i hop hes aranger 4 life. and hes not gonn get 5 mill. not for a 54 point season and i wouldnt get all worked up ovr it either. hes probably getting more like 4 if they get a deal done before arb. i think cally will get as much or a little higher than duby, and hes not getting 5 mill either. if either one gets that, i will be pissed. i love both players, but neither are 1st liners. anybody that doesnt play 1st line fwd and d pair, and starting goalie(good one) should make that money unless were a very deep talented team with basically 2 1st lines. if duby doesnt settle than he gets a 2 year deal and the “dublowsky” crew will be happy when or if he leaves.
i wish i could be there ilb. next summer, i get my daughter for 2 weeks vacation, and i used that up already this summer, so next year i will bring her . u guys better do another bonehead picnic. i really wanna meet you guys. im pretty much a party animal!! hey, maybe me and cccp can do a bagel eating contest. lw3h can do standup, and we gotta get orr there out of his dungeon too.
Say Dubinsky hits 60 points next season. That would be good enough to get him into the top 50 forwards for scoring. It might not be “1st line forward on any team in the league” type production, but on the free agent market (which any deal he gets over 2 years will have to take into account) that is worth at least $4M.
What happens if the Rangers lose Dubi? It seems like that is becoming a real possibility.
Grabby- if my upstate house is still intact after this Saturday, we’ll do it again next year, sure. We will need to get Tony to take pictures too….
Just a reminder- our first pair Dman is averaging just less than $4M per.
ctb- mayeb by then mdz will still be here and will be agood pp qb d man for us and can recruit stamkos here! that would be great. and richards will be just about gone or close to by then!
Manny- they are not losing him. I do not know why Brooks is mentioning one year deal, but the team has an option to apply for 2-year arbitration ruling in Duby’s case (not Callahan’s). Either way, he will be in the camp come September.
Thanks, ilb. That is refreshing!
The only ways they lose Dubi is if they trade him after signing him or they trade his rights in the next day. Player elected arb always results in a contract.
I really wonder the reaction of people here would be if Cally does the same thing. When in fact, other than he’s a year closer to UFA, he’s got less of a case for earning bigger money.
we wont loe duby manny. at least for 2 years anyway. if it goes to arb, the rangers can keep hm for a 1 or 2 year contract and then maybe after 2 years dby will become a 70 point player and will actually deserve a 5 mill contract.
ct- if he plays lw on the top line duby should get 60 easy. they should reallyget this done so they can get him a contract ore than the 1 or 2 year from arb.
My big disagreement with Brooks’ article is that he said the Rangers wouldn’t trade Dubinsky for Ladd. Have to think that they would make that deal in a second. Aside from the fact that the first time he was put in a primary offensive role he almost potted 30 goals on that WRETCHED Thrashers team, the guy has already won two cups.
theres a difference to you if you make 4.5 million or 5 million ?????
when is it ever enough ???
ilb- sounds great! next year we gonna burn that mother byfuglier down yo!!!!
It sounds like he may get less in arbitration than the Rangers are offering in a long term deal. Considering potential roll back after next season, and possible decrease in total cap, I do not think he wants to go to arbitration.
Honestly, we have to keep Dubi and Cally. Dubi should recognize that 500k may be the difference between keeping the core and effing the team in the A.
Hammerhead- um…, the difference is exactly $500K. That’s 5 zeros :-)
I have to think that if Dubinsky goes to arbitration, we should start preparing for a future without him. These things never turn out nice.
Barry Beck – See, we have totally different impressions of Dubinsky. I’ve heard those criticisms before, and they generally come from fans that simply don’t like the guy for whatever reason. They’re easy to debunk too: The guy didn’t score 44 goals and get 54 helpers in two seasons by being weak on the puck, easily knocked down and unable to find the back of the net. The only other Ranger to have better numbers in the past two seasons was Gaborik.
Bull dog – agree 100 percent. I could care less what Dubinsky makes, as long as he back with the team and stays here a long time.
manny – No way does Dubi bolt this year. I don’t even think they’ll trade him unless they’re given a deal too good to be true.
I’m not a big fan of Jess Rubenstein, but he has a really good take on the whole contract negotiations over at Prospect Park.
If some of you justify a 60 point season being worth a $4+ million a year contract then where have your standards gone?
I still think that Dubi is best off getting a short contract (2 years) and proving himself and making a lot more money after that.
ilb,
so kind of you to invite the bonehead family.
Doodie
Andrew Ladd is a career third line player. He had his one big year like most players do on a team that sucks and plays no defense. The Jets would trade Ladd for Dubi in a heartbeat! That said, as a big Dubi fan, I am very disappointed if in fact he is turning down a 4 year 18 million deal. He is nuts if he thinks he is a 5.2 million per year player. Oh and Cally is just as nuts if he thinks that that is what he is worth as well. Before I get jumped on, I know that nothing about him has been talked about so calm down, I am only speculating.
In closing, I hope that the crazy numbers that Dubi is asking for are just posturing for the arbitration process,otherwise he could and should be trade!
Is that a correct figure? He turned down 4 years at $18M? Why? Who is his agent? He will end up at arbitration with a shorter term and somewhere around $4M. I see it as a lose-lose for Luigi.
Tim Connolly signed for 4.75 mil a season… with a 42 point season.
I’m forced to justify 4.5 mil for a 60 point season due to the insanity of free agency.
Imagine what Dubinsky may have gotten if he was a UFA.
So we need to stop with the “well he’s only worth this or that” talk… he’s worth what a team is willing to pay him, and in this case, his asking price, and what the Rangers are offering are not that far apart, so let’s not burn him at the stake.
Andrew Ladd was a third line player in Chicago when the first two lines were filled with guys like Sharp, Kane, Toews, Havlat/Hossa, etc.
Also, like I said: Ladd has 2 Cups. That’s two more than any non-former Lightning players on the Rangers.
I like Dubi and everything, but the guy still hasn’t scored 25 goals oat the professional level. How is he all of a sudden more valuable than a guy that has, especially when the other guy brings a lot more experience to the table?
if Dubi makes it to unrestricted in 2 years, you don’t think somebody out there is going to give him big money? Leno, Fleischman, etc this year. it only takes one.
BTW, 60 points makes you a top 50 scoring forward in the NHL last season. Add 10 points and you are top 25.
Is 60 points great production? No, but a player that puts up top 50 forward in the NHL numbers that is trying to negotiate a deal that covers a couple of unrestricted free agency can certainly demand that much. This isn’t the 80’s anymore where teams were getting consistently getting 60 points from their 5th and 6th best forwards.
bull dog, absolutely. And much more importantly, these arbitrations are ugly. Could leave a bad taste in his mouth that sends him packing.
That much meaning $4M.
The Phlyers would pay through their teeth for a guy like Dubi.
I wish he’d just sign already. I’m sick of this garbage. I couldn’t give a toss about what he makes. It’s not like the Garden seats are going to cost $10 more next season if Dubinsky gets a raise. Some of you take this stuff way too seriously.
Czech – where did you see he turned that down? I’d think that would get him to sign the dotted line.
I think everyone will come away satisfied with the Dubie result.
Dubie will not get a long-term deal at over $5 mio per
Rangers will not get him for $3.5-$3.8 in the arbitration process.
Arbitrator will give him 2 years at $ 4.0 per year. (maybe up to $4.3 per year)
Then two years from now, if he keeps improving, he will be gone to the highest bidder, cie la vie
Totally agree Lifetime. Totally.
I just noticed that I typed my email in wrong and my posts have still been working. I don’t even think .edyu is a proper address. Does that make me a troll?
to those of you that are posting comments like, who cares and whats the difference what he gets paid….it matters because of the salary cap. The result of what Dubie and Cally end up with, and whether Erixon makes the team, is the whether it all fits under the salary cap.
Currently, Rangers have $10.6 left to include Dubie/Cally/and 2 Dem.
If Dubie and Cally get closer $10 instead of $8, and Erixon makes the team ($1.8) and say Eminger signs at $1.2….the $8 mio foe Cally/Dubie fits perfectly, but the $10 puts us two over.
Doodie,
As much as I believe that Cup winning teams tend to get contributions from their entire lineups, Ladd was far from a key reason why the Canes or Hawks won the Cup. This past year he had the breakout season that his previous teams were waiting for him to have and smartly parlayed that into a decent contract but I think it’s a stretch to say the Rangers would trade Dubi for him in a second.
Thank goodness for some sanity here. this is a cornerstone player, or he will be. you’re quibbling over relative nickels here. ... when in the past they’ve tossed around millions on absolute bums and B-list free agents.
If you can lock him up at even $5M per, that number is going to look like a bargain in a few years. And, no, they aren’t going to lose or trade Dubinsky over a million bucks or less.
Gotta go to work. see youse.
Thanks lifetime! I was about to say something similar. We need to think about the cap space AFTER Dubi and Cally and IF Erixon makes the team (which I am guessing he does). As you pointed out Mrs. Eminger (7th D-Man) is an important signing and one that could have a huge impact on this team if Del Zotto decides to tweet about partying, get too wasted or get injured OR play like garbage.
Lifetime,
Capgeek also came out with the bonus carryovers from last year and they’re more than what many people were expecting. The cap is actually pretty tight. They can probably work around things if they wait until September to officially add some contracts and move some other ones around. This all becomes moot if they buyout Wolski after the arb cases are done.
CTB, Drury turned his one Cup and little league world series into several large contracts and a legacy as a clutch performer.
Hell, the Rangers even gave big contracts to Matt Cullen and Aaron Ward for the same exact reason.
Players that have been there, even if as a depth player, get rewarded over and over again.
That’s the real question – shouldn’t the Rangers be trying to buy some of Dubinsky’s UFA years like they did with Staal and is that worth a premium. Stall gets just a shade under $4 million. Obviously they are different playes and play different positions. At this pace, will Dubi get $5 million or more as a UFA in 2 years? I had hoped they would be able to secure Dubi and Cally for a combined $8 million or so – I think $10 million becomes excessive, but given that they have some space (and could get more by buying out Wolski if needed), they will get more space next year when Drury’s buyout hit drops, maybe $9 for both of these guys isn’t a bad deal. Never mind whether Dubi is worth $4.5 or $5 million, who are the Rangers going to get that is a suitable replacement? That will pot 25 goals, fight anyone, and really want to be a Ranger for a long time?
To me, you have to take care of your own. we developed this guy, we grew him, we want to keep him as long as possible. These are the kinds of signings you want the team making. So if you can get Dubi to go 4-5 years 4.25 – 4.5 per and Cally to go 4-5 years for 4.5-5.0 per, maybe that’s just something you have to do.
Just a reminder on the rules of arbitration:
Admissible Evidence
* The player’s “overall performance” including statistics in all previous seasons.
* Injuries, illnesses and the number of games played.
* The player’s length of service with the team and in the NHL.
* The player’s “overall contribution” to the team’s success or failure.
* The player’s “special qualities of leadership or public appeal.”
* The performance and salary of any player alleged to be “comparable” to the player in the dispute.
* The salary cap and the state of the team’s payroll.
Evidence that is Not Admissible:
* The salary and performance of a “comparable” player who signed a contract as an unrestricted free agent.
* Testimonials, video and media reports.
* The financial state of the team.
I sort of want the Callahan negotiations to go until the very end and see what the reaction on this board is.
I love both players but some seem to be very much pro-Cally and anti-Dubi. Yet if Cally drags his negotiation out, I’m sure there will be a justification for doing so.
I also love that people are reacting to a Larry Brooks “report” based on some anonymous “source.” Give me a break.
CTB…yes, I agree. If we go the way Carp thinks we should, or if Dubie and Cally end up with $5 mio, then the Wolski buyout is not only in play, but is a probability. (which may not be a bad thing)
”* The salary cap and the state of the team’s payroll.”
I think they will point to Staal and say he’s getting less than 4 million, and he is an all-star, first pairing defenseman. There is a salary structure that they are trying to establish and anything above 4.5 is just well outside of that structure (ignoring the now removed contracts of Drury, Rozsi, Redden, and Gomez).
Brooks is the worst.
Peter,
They also bought out Staal’s entire RFA/arb eligible years. That was their smartest signing to date.
Good point Doodie.
The Rangers will have to play up Dubi’s injuries and Empty Net goals.
Also – we could help the negotiations for the Rangers and their Cap Space if we just create “public opinion” against the player I guess. WE HOLD THE KEYS
The Rangers will play up Cally’s injuries even more if he goes to arb.
Scary to think that Dubi could get the same arbiter that Zherdev got…
But with that said, business is business. Let Dubi go thru arbitration. It’s his right. Sather frowns on guys doing this. Maybe he gets traded. Maybe another team makes an offer sheet. Dubi is replaceable. Especially if he is overpaid.
Manny,
and Dubi will respond by saying, the coach put his best players out in that situation, and I was one of them. he will also say I played the last part of the season on a broken leg, and still led the team in scoring.
If we end buying out / dumping Wolski because of the cost of Cally and Dubie, then either Vinny will come back on the cheap for one more year or some kid/whale may get a chance (i.e. Weise, Hagelin, Newbury)
It seems more and more likely that Wolski is on the way out, but I just hate to lose the lottery ticket we have in him. Would much rather see a guy like Avery bought out or Christensen Whaled.
Dubi should play for free…. Do any of you get paid to work? Would you want as much as possible? Didn’t think so.
Given what rozival, drury, redden, et al. got, Dubi has every right to get as much as possible within limits of course.
Once a player goes to arb that ends their exposure to offer sheets.
Maybe this is more of an indictment of the Rangers farm system over the past decade, but they haven’t produced a player that’s been capable of even 60 points in a long time.
Again, if you have to go to the FA market to find 60 points, you’re going to pay at least what Dubi gets in arb if not more.
Bull Dog – Two Words – Empty Netter. How many goals did he lead the team by?
Over the last 2 years, dubi is the second highest point man after gabby..he deserves whatever he can get.
I should also make it known that I love Luigi and recommend him as deserving of an “A”.
Manny,
Dubi’s agent can also say that he was out on the ice in critical situations defending a lead that allowed him to get the empty netters. I’m sure his agent has drawn up his ice time by particular situations.
Manny – look at how many empty netters you have posted …. It hasn’t hurt your salary has it?
As Carp mentioned, If Dubi stays at, or even improves upon his current statistical output, 4.5-5 mil will seem like a bargain 2 or 3 years from now.
Leading point getter behind Gaborik the last 2 seasons combined. The proof is right there, and thus why he’s getting paid.
“Honestly, we have to keep Dubi and Cally. Dubi should recognize that 500k may be the difference between keeping the core and effing the team in the A.”
I hate, hate, hate (bold!) this logic. Why is it Dubinsky’s responsibility to give up like 15% of his market value to stipend a contract for a guy who’s never played a minute in NY and has already made 10x more than him?
Where is the threshold of Dubi being overpayed? 4.5? 5?
I’m just wondering if people are squawking about 500k.
Connolly- $4.75 mil
Leino- $4.5 mil
Stafford- $4 mil
Hartnell- $4.2 mil
Huselius- $4.75 mil
See any superstars on that list? They all have similar or worse stats than Dubi, and all get paid in the 4+ mil a season range. And there are lots more players I could add, but i’d be here awhile.
So I say again… at what point is Dubi overpaid?
OFF TOPIC: (sorry)
Huge 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom apt for rent in Midwood, Brooklyn $1,500. Available sometime in September. 10 min drive from prospect park, 5 min drive from BQE, B/Q trains. Contact me. Thanks.
odessitbk@msn.com
Gift of GAB-orik
to most people on here facts don’t matter. Dubi is hated no matter what.
Good point, Eddie!
You are spot on, CT.
Remember. I love Luigi. I want him on the team forever. With his little parted haircut and his Glee obsession.
Osgood has done enough in his career to get in as a “compiler.” Maybe not first ballot but eventually once some other goalies get in. Craptacular Isles tenure notwithstanding he has been good enough for long enough to get in.
The real question is whether Richter or Barrasso will be the first US born goalie to get in the HHoF. Barrasso has 1 more Cup than Richter and I think has better stats but more people remember Richter for beating Canada in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey, which was the greatest international competition ever and the best hockey I have ever seen.
“to most people on here facts don’t matter. Dubi is hated no matter what.”
Its such a Philadelphian approach to loathe your own in the face of solid production.
Gift of GAB, nice work!
Gabs,
Because he held out before and he’s not like the bestest coolest and most favoritest player ever.
/sarcasm
Grab – CT – bulldog …. All good points you are making.
I really like when people use “like” in their posts. It is a clear marker of sarcasm. Maybe the only one!
DJK,
Frank Brimsek is already in the HOF. He was born in Minnesota.
CCCP,
Maybe moneybags Dubin$ky can rent your place.
First of all, Connolly, Leino, Hartnell, and Huselius aren’t fair comparables because they got their money on the open market.
Looking at Stafford, he scored a goal every other game last season (31 in 62 games played). And he gets 4 million. Dubinsky had 24. Why should Dubi get 1 million more?
morning ILB and all!!
funny tweet…
Steve Zipay
He’ll be in NY in 11-12 so far RT @nyrs_rangers: @stevezipay All players scheduled for 1st week settled except Dubinsky. So much for wanting to remain a NYR.
Not sure what that means???
Ah, dubi’s getting up there with avery as far as polarizing. I simply think that cally is waiting on dubi because dubi was first!
What, if any, effect does Redden’s salary being on the summer cap have on getting everyone signed? Seems like no effect at all.
CTB, way too many people forget Mr. Zero when discussing American goaltenders.
And for the record DJK, neither Barrasso nor Richter sniff the Hall.
Noah, we have to operate 700k below the cap during the summer.
Dubi’s porn mustache alone warrants a 5M salary….
Hey CCCP and Gift of Gab….I am really high on Dubie, big time. Have always liked him.
But we established more than a month ago, that he is worth bascially, exactly Stafford.
There is a big difference between $4 mio and $ 5 mio per year.
Connolly has put up 65 points in a year
Huselius 77, 66, 63 points in years
They are worth the extra
Leino…someone overpaid him…like the Rangers used to do
Cally is waiting to make sure he gets more than Dubi. not saying he should not get more, just saying why I think he is waiting.
Noah,
The biggest effect is that Redden’s cap hit doesn’t allow to optimize the 10% summer overage cushion. So in essence they’re playing with the in season cap.
I didn’t then, nor do i now, condone the holdout… real bad advice from his agent, that he made worse by not going to camp. This is another matter entirely.
I just find it strange when people are so quick to villify a guy who’s been immensely important to the identity of this team, and has put up numbers only behind a legit sniper.
Logically and statistically Dubinsky is important to this team. I have been presented no reason or evidence to the contrary.
“First of all, Connolly, Leino, Hartnell, and Huselius aren’t fair comparables because they got their money on the open market.”
Assuming the Rangers are trying to extend into his UFA years, they’re fair comps because that’s what he can expect in those years. If its bickering over no more than 2, agreed, not good comps.
Dubi’s deal will basically be the floor for Callahan’s.
and there is NO WAY IN HELL Callahan should be paid more than Dubinsky. If you want to overanalyze stats and use it in an argument to knock down Dubinsky’s salary, it’s only fair to do the same to Callahan. If anything, their salaries should be equal, as their statistical impact has been about the same.
And for the record, I love both players, and want them to retire as Rangers.
“Cally is waiting to make sure he gets more than Dubi. not saying he should not get more, just saying why I think he is waiting.”
Partly yes, but I think the other part is that Sather probably hasn’t been in touch that much yet with Callahan’s people because of trying to iron out Dubinsky and preparing for the arbitration.
Gabs,
I agree with you. Holdouts just leave a bad taste in most people’s mouth.
I look at it that professional athletes are in a rare position of being able to hold out for money for a guaranteed contract. I would bet that any one of us would try to earn top dollar and use a holdout as a bargaining tactic if we could.
G of G…saying a guy is worth $4 mio per year, to be the third highest paid forward on a team with Gabby and Brad Richards….is not villifying anyone !
Guys like me want Dubie on this team, alot !
Just not giving him a blank check. He is not Derek Jeter
CT
Price for moneybags Dubin$ky will be much higher than $1,500! He’s got bags of money after all! YO!
Osgood in the HoF? You cannot be serious. I could have been in goal on those red wing teams and done as well…he is lucky to have had such a stellar cast surrounding him.
Agreed, CT
So your argument is Dubinsky couldn’t get $5 mil as a UFA? I’m willing to say he’d find a taker, considering what Leino and Connolly just got this year.
And if he wants to make a long term deal, so he doesn’t hit UFA in the next year or two, and is looking for around $5 million, I think it’s perfectly acceptable.
I think both of our “arguments” are valid point of views .
We can agree to disagree.
I am willing to let Dubie walk two years from now, and you are willing to overpay him a $1 mio per year for 5 years to keep him three years longer.
Lifetime,
I hear ya, I’m not saying Dubinsky should get paid like a top player on the team… but look around the league, and how many guys are in that 4-5 mil a season range… the list is long. Real long. So that’s why i’m surprised to see people bark like Dubinsky is out of his mind.
The precedent was set a long time ago… he wants to be a Ranger, and wants to get paid. Good for him.
I’ll be 100% happier to see Dubi get $5 mil give or take a few, than I ever was to see the contract Redden, Gomez, Drury etc. got.
I agree that Dubi and cally should be close, if not equal, in salary….
bobby ryan 5.1 mil does anyone think dubi should get that.
this year free agents were a joke. most teams are paying crap big money. i see all your points about leino, kopecky, upshall, but i agree with doodie you cant go by ufa on the open market this year. the floor on the cap went up. do you think flordia would hand out such ridiculous contracts this year if the cap was lower
Actually – I remember a piece on Brooklyn Magazine about Derek Stepan. Apparently he lives in Brooklyn somewhere. He must have a blast out there.
And in the grand scheme of things… if Dubinsky stays at, or even slightly improves on his stat total year by year… then the hypothetical $1mil a season ‘overpayment’ would be well worth it no?
I, by the way, do hold Dubi higher than Cally. not by much. but I think Dubi has been the more consistent player. now if Cally could play 82 games in a season you might have something different.
Bobby Ryan isn’t a good comparison either because he didn’t have arbitration rights. If he was in Dubi’s shoes, he would have gotten a lot more.
Tallon did it in Chicago, he’s doing it now in Florida… nobody should be surprised or use any of those FLA signings in their argument. I didn’t.
I’ll again refer to BSB’s resident stat-head, because he’s done the best job of breaking down performance vs value that I’ve seen anywhere:
*
The list of guys with 4+ 20 goal & 50 point seasons since the lockout:
Alfredsson, Arnott, Briere, Dustin Brown, Brunette, Cammalleri, Carter, Cole, Crosby, Datsyuk, Drury, Elias, Frolov, Gaborik, Heatley, Hejduk, Horton, Hossa, Huselius, Iginla, O. Jokinen, Kane, Knuble, Kopitar, Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Malkin, Marleau, Andy McDonald, Nash, Ovechkin, Parise, Perry, Pominville, BRichards, MRichards, Derek Roy, Daniel Sedin, Selanne, Semin, Ryan Smyth, Spezza, St. Louis, E. Staal, Stastny, Thornton, Toews, Vanek, Whitney, Zetterberg.
50 guys, that’s it. There are a couple of young guys (ex: Stamkos, Ryan, Kessel) that just don’t have the service who will do it also. With a couple of exceptions, it’s basically the who’s-who of the NHL.
Dubinsky only has one such year, so it’s entirely too early to start putting him in the same class, but even if he does nothing but replicate 2010-11 every year, he’d be a quite valuable commodity.
**
A good chunk of that list makes more than $5m, and the ones that don’t are either young guys on their 1st/2nd contract, or older guys who are on their last/2nd last contracts.
***
More fun..only 317 players in NHL history have had a 20/50 season at age 24 (though of course Dubinsky’s near the bottom of that list with just 54 points)
Only 33 players post-lockout (again, Dubi near the bottom)
Doodie – there are no “shoes” in hockey – only “skates”.
bull dog, I disagree entirely with saying Dubinsky is the more consistent player. Callahan is far more consistent. You are right about the playing 82 games thing, but night in, night out, you get the exact same maximum effort from Callahan. I can’t say that about Dubinsky. In fact, I think the only things that Dubi has over Callahan are that Callahan gets hurt a lot and Dubinsky is good at taking faceoffs.
Cool stuff, CT.
eric,
my point was if you let Dubi walk 2 years from now(when he is a UFA) he is going to get big money. if he signs for 4.5 for 5, he will be looked at as a good contract in 2 years.
doodie,
that was a word I did not want to use, consistent. how about more reliable than Cally.
It’s refreshing to have this kind of debate rather than something like “when does [Drury’s/Gomez’s/Redden’s/Rozsival’s] contract expire???”
Reliable works.
This was the only year in Dubi and Cally’s careers that Cally has had a higher points per game average. If I’m not mistaken they’ve both been part of the PK since they earned full time jobs in the league and the PK has been pretty solid with them on it.
Cally was on pace to have a better season this past year than Dubi, but over the course of their careers, Dubi has been the more productive player.
If people want to bring up Cally’s injury from blocking shots, then they also have to include Dubi’s hand exploding blocking a shot the previous year.
If Dubi wants money he will get money. If he wants to win he will take less money and more years and hopefully give the Rangers some ability to pick people up that they need. The little pieces. Then he will show he wants to win by playing his ass[en] off every single game night.
We are still going at it, I see….Can’t wait until Orr wakes up and sees the numbers….:-)
Amen NOAH!
It’s refreshing to have this kind of debate rather than something like “when does [Drury’s/Gomez’s/Redden’s/Rozsival’s] contract expire???”
***
Not quite as fun as “why isn’t Wilile Mitchell a Ranger yet”.
We will easily crack 500 posts today at this rate. Viva Los Cabezas del Huesos! (hoy, mas como Cabezas del Huevos)
” If Dubi wants money he will get money. If he wants to win he will take less money and more years and hopefully give the Rangers some ability to pick people up that they need. The little pieces. Then he will show he wants to win by playing his ass[en] off every single game night. ”
What little pieces are we adding for $500k? Dubinsky is 24 not 32, why should he worry about taking less money so the Rangers have more cap room… shouldn’t that have been Brad Richards problem?
I certainly do not dislike Dubinsky. I admire his determination and his desire to stick up for his teammates. I just feel that he is praised by the masses that feel he is an All Star caliber player when he’s not.
He’s a nice player and nice players shouldn’t be making $4+ million per, that’s all.
Hey, what’s all this Dubinsky talk for? Don’t we have to re-sign Jessiman?
Then again… according to Slats, Richards did leave money on the table to come to NY. So I guess Dubinsky is the anti-christ.
How long before Lundqvist, Gaborik, and Richards crippling contracts are off the books?
Barry,
I don’t think many of us are arguing that he’s an all-star player. In the context of the league he’s the bottom tier of 1st line players or a strong 2nd line player. The pricing of players of similar age and production however puts him in the $4M territory. He’s by no mean a superstar, but he’s an important player to the team and it’s more appropriate to pay him $4-$4.5M than it was to pay Drury/Gomez/Redden their salaries.
500 post how about 1000 by 3pm and god forbid dubi signs for 5.25 mil we hit 1500 posts.
5.25 for dubi take a hike.
Latona?
“If Dubi wants money he will get money. If he wants to win he will take less money and more years and hopefully give the Rangers some ability to pick people up that they need.”
First, if he wants to win the Rangers aren’t his best choice, going the UFA route in 2 years is. Second, I still don’t get why its up to him and not a guy like Richards to take less “for the good of the team”.
If we’re playing the comp game, how about Wolski getting $4MM next season? An amount the Rangers willingly chose to take on to erase another big money mistake. Its Dubinsky’s job to allow the wiggle room to make moves like that down the line at his own (literal) expense? C’mon. The flipside of Dubinsky “holding out” is the Rangers “refusing to pay a young core player”. Its two sided.
eric,
No matter how many times you say it. Dubi will be a Ranger for the next year or two at least given he went to player elected arb.
So if we are saying it isn’t just about stats (which I agree with), there is NO WAY we can say that dubi and cally should get the same amount of money. Cally is 100% effort all the time, no one can say that about dubi.
Would someone please tell me PLEASE TELL ME what games they are watching where dubi is standing up for his teammates all the time????
let’s talk effort, which guy would you say gives more effort?
dubi or prust
dubi or boyle
dubi or feds
dubi or cally
dubi or drury
dubi or gabby
dubi or WW
dubi or avery
dubi or prospal
dubi or EC
dubi or stepan
I give dubi the nod over 3 on effort and even on a 4th, so he is in the bottom 3rd of effort with the forwards at the end of last season…(effort not talent or ability) come on people
If the majority of 45-55 point per year NHL’ers were making $2 mil a season, and Dubinsky got $5 mil a season, then we could all scratch our heads and be puzzled.
But if you look around the league, and look at guys who have signed contracts in the past year or two… 4+ mil a season is as common as Joe Micheletti man loving comments on the air.
And i could care less if he signs for 4.25 or 4.8 or even 5.
Giving Dubinsky an ‘extra’ 500k or so in his contract will not make or break this team.
dubi or prust
dubi or boyle
dubi or feds
dubi or cally
dubi or drury
dubi or gabby
dubi or WW
dubi or avery
dubi or prospal
dubi or EC
Correction
dubi or cally
Sign Dubi, sign Cally, then …............REFRESH,REFRESH, REFRESH
Another thing to keep in mind about Dubinsky and the money he may demand is that out of his 24 goals last season 5 were empty netters.
$4 + million per for a guy with a whopping 19 goals in 77 games.
But he did tie for the league lead in that category with someone who just won the cup if that helps his argument!
P.S. Just for good measure, his last PP goal came before Thanksgiving.
re Cally: the reality is he DOES get hurt a lot. He style of play likely wont change and along with that the injuries will continue…
wicky,
Effort is pretty impossible to quantify. I have strong doubts that the Rangers would try to denigrate a player that logs high amounts of ice time and plays in all important situations as lacking effort. And the downside to Cally’s supposed 100% effort is his injuries. Like it or not, Dubi’s stats are what his agent (or virtually any other agent in the league) will use as the basis for negotiations.
Barry – still better than Drury’s 7M for ONE goal
last time i checked, EN goals count the same as if the goalie is in the nets…....its like discounting a football RB’s TD’s just because they are from the one yard line…TD = TD and EN = Goal…..
I love that we’re ranking perceived effort here.
CT – that’s a good point. Why not figure out what 5 guys on the team you would want out there in a tie game with 2 minutes to go taking a faceoff in the offensive zone.
Barry,
With regards to the empty net goal discussion. First, those goals aren’t entirely meaningless. Second, being on the ice to defend the lead at the end of a game demonstrates his importance to team defensively. If the Rangers are using him for most of those situations where they’re defending a 1 or 2 goal lead late in the game it obviously reflects that think he’s an important player for more than just offensive production.
Wait – even better. Down 1. Offensive Zone Faceoff. 45 Seconds left. Goalie Pulled. What 6 guys do you want out there?
On the Rangers or in the league in general?
I’m sure people would overpay for his “services”, sure (since when did we all of a sudden need to pay what other teams pay?). I mean brian campbell get’s a butt load of cash, should we give him that amount as well? I understand market value, but just because one team feels a player is worth X amount of dollars doesn’t mean another team feels the same. That is why the arbitrator is in business.
I do not think dubi is a cornerstone of the franchise, a guy like stamkos is, a top goalie is, a stud d man is, but a 2nd line forward who (at this point) is not 100% effort, always SEEMS to hold out, talks a game, but doesn’t necessarily back it up, should not be a cornerstone IMHO. I mean, it really seems like just because he is home grown (who really cares), he is a cornerstone?? Is blake wheeler a cornerstone? Leino? stafford?
Let me spin this another way, if dubi was put on the 4th line for an extended period of time like avery or WW, how would he play? Think about it…
CT – I guess what you just said proves my point. You want Dubi out there in all crucial situations. He is that important to this team.
manny – you only need 1 player….THE PRUST
CT – On the Rangers.
CT – great points in regards to Barry, the separated shoulder, Beck
you guys griping about “quantifying” effort here, lighten up it is just a discussion.
wicky – put dubi on the 4th line and he scores 40…...easy to prove as well….
WW, brich, boyle, cally, gabby, and staal
For what it’s worth, since we’re talking about comparables…
In a power ranking list of top 20 NHL RFA’s this season… Dubinsky and Callahan were top 7 behind Stamkos, Weber, Parise, Doughty, and Yandle.
i can mathematically model things like effort…..having done so…dubi derserves whatever he can get….
Carp should definitely cut a check for 1/2 of $1.50 per each comment today to Larry Brooks.
I am with you Wicky – Effort is an important part of Hockey. We judge effort with out eyes. Who knows if we are right but we try.
On the Rangers?
If we’re going with 4 F and 2 D.
Gaborik
Richards
Dubinsky
Callahan
Staal
Girardi
I’d love to see Del Zotto rebound back to the level where he’s important in the transition game. But given that Sauer and McD have shown limited offensive potential in their brief NHL careers, I guess it’s Girardi by default for now.
Brooks doesn’t deserve the money he gets paid, let alone MORE money.
i could show you the model, but it requires a lot of graphs, charts, and an easel…
CT – that is EXACTLY my 6. It made me realize that Dubi might actually get a shot at Wing on the first line. Who knows…..
Actually scratch that , I would have OPG out there instead of staal so he could do his penguin thing to distract the other team
the angle of the dangle + the heat of the meat = dubi’s porn stasche
...you dont need six players…all you need is one PRUST
This says it all.
http://tinyurl.com/3kwmg7l
This is why he will get $5 mil. And why it’s worth it.
Gab – He will get $5M because of Derek Jeter?
purcell resigned with the ning, had 17 goals and 51 pts, two year deal, wonder what the numbers were?
I don’t get it what does some baseball guy have to do with dubi? Are they dating?
wicky,
I think across the league, when comparing players of similar age/service time/contract status/production, the market for players tends to be efficiently priced. Taking guys like Brian Campbell that are somewhat outliers to the market’s assigned median value (even though for part of his contract he’s not been as much of an outlier as he’s perceived to be) is a bit of a biased approached. And the same time there are also numerous cases of guys being underpaid for their levels of production, thus .
As for a franchise guy, you’re right Dubi isn’t one of them. I know Carp might have referred to him earlier as such, I’d refer to him more as a “blood and guts” type player that is also reasonably productive. The franchise players get the 10 year deals or the $7M cap hit deals. Dubi’s not asking for one of those deals.
are you kidding me?
I doubt he’s kidding.
Anyone who uses the line “The guy falls down easily without contact, therefore, can’t stay on his skates” is scraping the barrel marked “Low to zero credibility, unsubstantiated arguments”.
Purcell also had a grand total of 34 points in parts of 3 seasons before this year. The Lightning could have very well overpaid for a 13th forward.
LW – are you defending the hobbit wizard? Are you on the team with me and NYR in that?
long live the hobbit wizard for he is lord of the rink
wicky
purcell got 2 yrs 4.72 total. 2.36 per season
CTB
you are right about campbell, I was just using him as an extreme example.
I would take prust and his 13 goals and everything he brings to the table over dubi and his 24 and what he brings any day of the week. He is far more of a cornerstone than dubi to me, a true team guy that really does stand up for his teammates.
LW,
I saw it at a subway magazine stand.
Here we go again…
attention all, my “are you kidding me” post was direct at what I thought was going to be a hattie, but I rang it off the post!!
eric
thanks
manny
where are we going?
I put Dubinsky out there to protect the lead with less than a minuet because of his willingness to throw his body in front of a puck. Not because he lead the league in EN goals.
And my point was is that if you took away those 5 EN’ers then his goal total is pretty small. But I also noticed how you didn’t defend how his last PP goal came all the way back in November.
if eminger can take less then 1.1 mil last season and take around 800k why cant dubi take 4 mil instead of 5.25.
eminger the team player
also on a side note
msg is televising all traver city games statting on sept 10th for the rangers according to sny rangers blog
TC games are always cool to watch, hope there is a online link
ummm?
not again?
zipay doing a live chat at blue notes at 1 pm
ok, now a hattie
don’t you need a password or something to partake?
ILB
in Indiana, should be there tomorrow!
another hattie
W/wicky
Not denigrating Prust at all, believe me, but there’s not a chance that he’s a more valuable player than Dubinsky (or anyone of comparable talent/production etc).
wombat—-> has TC info as well
wicky,
I don’t disagree that Prust embodies what you want out of a player. He’s a teammate and a coach’s dream. In fact, the only time I’ve ever met Carp* was the last home game of the year in 09-10 vs the Flyers. If you remember at that time, the Prust-Anisimov-Shelley line was their most effective line. Anyway, I caught up with Carp after the 1st intermission and told him that I think Prust was a keeper because he plays a gritty style, but he also plays within his own abilities. He sticks up for his boys and he’s worked hard to improve his game. He’s like the Rangers version of Kris Draper/Kirk Maltby. But teams value players that can produce goals (scoring or setting them up) and the currency of hockey is goals. Between the two, Dubinsky has shown more proficiency for producing goals.
“I would take prust and his 13 goals and everything he brings to the table over dubi and his 24 and what he brings any day of the week. He is far more of a cornerstone than dubi to me, a true team guy that really does stand up for his teammates.”
By definition, that’s not a cornerstone guy, that’s a complimentary piece that all good teams have. You can replace Prust (see: Rupp) on this roster 10 times before you could replace Dubinsky. Dubinsky is a core guy, Prust is the type who comes in and elevates a core.
Because Eminger is looking for a job at all. He will take whatever they give him.
Also, you are comparing Eminger taking a 300k paycut to Dubi shaving off 1.25 million.
I’ll take him for whatever he gets, but if I think the number is too high, I’d start exploring trade options.
following games
thurs 11/3 vs anaheim
friday 11/11 vs carolina
thurs 12/8 vs tampa
tues 12/13 vs dallas
tues 1/10 vs phoenix
tues 1/17 vs nashville
tues 3/13 vs carolina
section 330 aisle seats face value $120 for pair. $15 dollars off parking included if you drive.
email me baum27@aol.com
come support dubi and his 5.25 mil contract
LW
like the W/w, LMFAO
doodie,
was trying to be a little sarcastic there. your right eminger will take anyhting
Barry,
There’s no reason to defend his lack of PP production. But given that the vast majority of the game is played at even strength, I don’t mind that most of his goals come during those situations.
Manny
I was referring to Mr Beck’s comments on Dubinsky towards the top of the thread rather than MZA. I have little to no interest in Scandinavian dwarf porn.
eek…over 5 mill for dubi. I am all for keeping dubi but over 5 or even 5 is way too much. I would only give him 4 or close to it.
This is just not good for dubi’s relationship with the organization and fans. I don’t know if its his agent or dubi himself with these figures.
Maybe dubi is using arbitration to his benifit and inflating his own value.
“I have to think that if Dubinsky goes to arbitration, we should start preparing for a future without him”
I did that two years ago, I’m prepared!
“I, by the way, do hold Dubi higher than Cally. not by much. but I think Dubi has been the more consistent player. now if Cally could play 82 games in a season you might have something different”
You got that wrong! It’s actually Cally who’s the more consistent overall player. He does need to play 82 games, but the way he plays, you’re bound to get injured a few times.
It’s pretty cool that MSG will air the Traverse City games. We’ll finally get to see some prospects play live!
“This is just not good for dubi’s relationship with the organization and fans. I don’t know if its his agent or dubi himself with these figures.”
Pretty sure it would take me negative seconds to choose an extra $500K over my “relationship” with fans who don’t understand that sports is a business for the athletes involved.
CT
I agree. Now for all of you who are chomping at the bit about the prust vs dubi thing, Are there guys out there like prust (well NO ONE is like prust), sure. Are they valuable, yes. To me guys like prust (and my harped on type of d man) are way undervalued. They will never make the jagr like other players will because this league bases it’s pay scale on the goals and points, and nothing else (goals and points are obviously much easier to quantify).
My point to this is simply if the pruster can score 13 to 15 goals and do what he does for 25% of what dubi makes to score 10 more goals, I’ll take prust any day…yada yada yada!
I also think give the ice time and role that dubi has WW would have more points than dubi and WW could replace dubi (just like rupp could replace prust). Blake wheeler could replace dubi, there are a lot of guys that could replace dubi and his mid twenty goals getting 1st/2nd line minutes as well as powerplay and EN opportunities!!
Wicky – we are going to a place where I am teased relentlessly. Actually one of my favourite (LW) places. Comedy giveth and comedy taketh.
LW
scandinavian dwarf porn…LMFAO!!!
Lack of PP production should be a non-factor when signing any of our players, considering we also lack an actual PP.
Sure anyone would take an extra 500k, but were talking about 1.5 mill over his worth imo, and you underestimate ny fans. You don’t think that most of the fans know what going on i think you way wrong.
“My point to this is simply if the pruster can score 13 to 15 goals and do what he does for 25% of what dubi makes to score 10 more goals, I’ll take prust any day…yada yada yada!”
The marginal value of a goal isn’t linear. Not to mention the fact that Prust’s ability to maintain 15 per season is far more in question than Dubinsky’s ability to score 25.
LW…I too LMFAO…funniest comment since that guy said he tried to buy Girardi a drink at the bar, but he blocked it.
korpikoski 2 yrs 3.6 1.8 per
purcell 2 yrs 4.72 2.36 per
both avoid arbitration today moments before there hearings.
brooks orpik hernia surgery out 6-8 weeks too bad its not months.
“Sure anyone would take an extra 500k, but were talking about 1.5 mill over his worth imo, and you underestimate ny fans.”
Key part of that phrase being IMO. The market dictates you’re wrong.
“You don’t think that most of the fans know what going on i think you way wrong.”
I think out of the fans who do know what’s going on, a good percentage don’t hold it against a player to shoot for the best possible contract as long as he’s working hard and producing. The rest should move to Philadelphia.
Did that link not work?
It was supposed to go to a Picture of Dubi from the playoffs, after he was announced as a star of the game, where he signed it, and wrote ‘fear the stache’ on it.
My apologies if the link directed you elsewhere.
Just curious here, but if you guys could field a team of rangers from the cup winning year until now, how many current rangers would be on it (include the RFAs)?
I’m going with 14 fwds 7 d men and 3 goalies
I come up with 6
Mr. D
Just like the rest of the posters here, I am “speculating” on some things. I also believe unless you know something the rest of us do not, you cannot guarantee dubi even score 25 again, is it likely, yes. But I am saying a roughly 10 goal difference to ME is not worth 4 times the salary when the lesser salary has far more positive intangibles than the higher one!
Didn’t Orpik miss the last few months of the season, and the playoffs with an injury??
delaware it has been written in news articles and is a very common thing that when a player inflates his own worth and then goes to arbitration. it is not a good thing for the players relationship to the franchise.
wicky,
Re: the 94 team. Are you including players that were with the team before the trading deadline or just the ones that won it?
when the lesser salary has far more positive intangibles than the higher one!
***
Intangibles are pretty highly valued. Just ask Drury.
orr
he played in the playoffs, remember he stapled stamkos at the beginning of that series
I’d say just the winners, but whatever you prefer sir!
Oh, right!
CTB
a LLWS also goes a long way in your contract value
wicky,
No one can guarantee anyone’s future production. What Mister DE was saying is that the probability that Dubi scores 25 is higher than Prust scoring 15. And goals aren’t the only area where Dubi outproduces Prust. I understand that you have love for the guys that are probably bathing themselves in a tub of ice after every game. But if you want to build a winning team, a player like Prust is going to be one of the last players you look to acquire. His role on the team is highly replaceable. This is not to say that Dubi is irreplaceable, but he is significantly harder to replace.
And Drury only scored roughly 10 goals fewer than Prust, which we can all agree is practically insignificant, so his intangibles clearly justify him earning 7x what Prust does.
Frank Brimsek
Man there;s a name from yesteryear…I saw him play once in the Garden ( old Garden), he was with Blackhawks along with Roy Conacher and the Bentleys….................that was in my youth.
Roy Conacher drove a Bentley?
And who(yzerman) the hell is Frank Brimsek?
Showing my youth here i imagine…
wicky,
From the 94 team (including pre-deadline players):
Messier
Graves
Leetch
Kovalev
Zubov
Amonte
Gartner
Other years:
Norstrom
Verbeek
Kim Johnsson
A sober Fleury
“Just like the rest of the posters here, I am “speculating” on some things. I also believe unless you know something the rest of us do not, you cannot guarantee dubi even score 25 again, is it likely, yes. But I am saying a roughly 10 goal difference to ME is not worth 4 times the salary when the lesser salary has far more positive intangibles than the higher one!”
Absolutely can’t guarantee it, didn’t mean for it to come off that way. What I was saying is I believe its far more logical to expect a consistent 25 from Dubinsky than a consistent 15 from Prust and that the marginal difference from what we should expect isn’t linear. So if you want to say you expect 24 from Dubinsky and 12 from Prust (which still feels high for a median), its not as simple as Dubinsky being worth double or triple.
“delaware it has been written in news articles and is a very common thing that when a player inflates his own worth and then goes to arbitration. it is not a good thing for the players relationship to the franchise.”
... among the type of fan oblivious to the ridiculousness of expecting loyalty in the face of personal interests. Its an entertaining business, but still a business. And I do think most fans get that. Outside of Philadelphia.
wicky, do we have to take them as they were when they played for us? Or can we buy the rest of their career as well?
For instance, do I get Mike Garnter 1994 or do I get all of Mike Gartner?
By the same token, do I get Tony Amonte 1994 or all of Tony Amonte?
Suppose I pick Graves? Do I get 94 or some other year from his tenure?
If I pick Kovalev, do I get his career, when he was here the first time, when he was here the second time, or present day Kovalev?
Frank Brimsek is the all time greatest US goaltender, and arguably greatest US born player. Brett Hull is the all-time greatest American player, but he was not US born.
Messier
Graves
Leetch
Kovalev
Zubov
Amonte
Gartner
Jagr
Beuke
Lindros (pre-brain scrambling)
Nedved
(sober) Fleury
mess, graves, verbeek, gabby, jagr, brich, simon, prust, cally, gretz, larmer, laperierre, matteau, the sarge
beuke, ulfie, leetch, zubov, staal, norstrom, kaspar (or kloucek)
hank and richter, biron (or healy)
just for giggles
Lots of Dubi talk here… I’ll chime in… I like how Dubi gets the crazy-eyes after whistles sometimes when there’s a scrum and he’s got this look on his face that says “I’m the Rangers’ tough-guy!” He gets all nutty like an ADD child that just got into the pixie sticks and sticks his chest out like he’s got something to prove. I’ve been calling him “Scrappy” for the past season or so.
I’d take a 17 year old Gretzky over any age Redden.
... among the type of fan oblivious to the ridiculousness of expecting loyalty in the face of personal interests
So you are obviously saying that there is just self prevelation for todays hockey players and no players with heart, loyalty to franchises anymore.
Wrong guy. In the mix of all the money hungry players. There are definitely still loyal players.
Rico Fata
Rumun Ndur
Bill Berg
Vladimir Vorobiev
Brian Skrudland
Mike Dunham
Stephane Quintal
Oh wait, these are the guys that I wish they invented mental bleach for.
I’m going to go out on a limb…..
Dubi signs right before arb hearing… for AAV of $4.83 mil… i’m torn between if it will be 4 or 5 years.
Everytime i see Rico Fata’s name, for some reason i always think about the movie Judge Dredd. Weird.
CT
I understand what you and the blue hen are saying, I just think dubi is as easy to replace as Prust is. It is just my opinion, and I do have an affliction for the 100% that score less and stick up for their teammates than the 50/75% guys that are about the jagr or just primadonna like. That being said, you have to score goals as well, I think they all go together to make a winning formula. If we were talking dubi being a 50 goal guy, then I see your point, but 25ish, easily replaceable.
Judge Dredd! One of the most boring movies of all time!
Doodie:
I completely disagree.
Brian Leetch is the greatest US/American born hockey playere ever
Chelios is second
I was torn on theo and lindros, could bump a couple for them
Good thing our elite scorer Gaborik scored 40 or more goals in each of the past two seasons.
Oh that’s right… he didn’t.
Only sure bets in life are death and taxes. And $1.50 to Carp per post or page view. And Trolls will be banished.
Point being, you never really know, you can only hope, and play the odds.
And if we could get a 50 goal scorer for $5 mil a season sign me up twice!
I mean the Rangers are paying an elite scorer over 7 mil, and an elite playmaking center over 6 mil, why can’t they pay an elite ‘stache 5 mil?
CTB
agreed on that list completely except for quintal (you could sub flatley for him IMHO). I thought quintal was a great team guy. Other guy that I really thought didn’t get any love during the dark years was tamer, reminds me of struds, just a guy that would do anything you ask of him on the ice and would fight anyone for a teammate.
Brimsek and Leetch both won a Calder
Brimsek won 2 Vezinas and Leetch won 2 Norris(s)
But Leetch goes past him with a Conn Smythe
Leetch won his awards when there were more than 6 teams to choose from
Game Set and Match…to Leetch, best American born player to play in the NHL AND
a New York Ranger….I AM A Ranger
You guys are in a horrifying spiral!
wicky,
Replaceable, yes? Easily replaceable, no. 25 goals obviously won’t get you into any record books, but in today’s NHL there’s only about 50 guys across the entire league that are 25 goals scorers or better. They might not cost an arm and a leg to acquire, but they aren’t cheap on the trade or free agent market.
I must admit, the stache does warrant a bit more money
Lifetime, Hull has 741 goals, 3rd all time. One of only 3 players to ever crack 80 in a season. Tied with Gretzky for most times to score 70+ (in fairness, Gretzky scored 92, 87, 73, while Hull went 72, 86, 70).
Leetch was great and so was Chelios, but you are just wrong.
CTB
ok, fine, find me 50 guys across the league that score 10 goals and have 10 fighting majors (cutting down the totals of prust from last year by 3 goals and 8 fights). I give you dubi is more easily replaceable than prust.
Never underestimate the value of PRUST!
Do you guys ever work? WTB?
The often imitated, never duplicated, Dubi-stache.
the ‘stache plays, so the Rangers should pay.
Wicky, there aren’t 50 guys in the NHL that can do that because teams aren’t looking for a lot of guys that can. I’m sure there are plenty of guys in the AHL that would contribute about 10 goals and can fight, not to mention that there are plenty of goal scorers in the NHL right now that can fight 10 times in a season but don’t because they are more valuable outside of the penalty box (Dubinsky for instance).
ILB
I’m on vaca driving to some dysfunctional reunion
Hull is NOT U. S. Born
1 Lady Byng
1 Hart
1 Pearson
Hull was great…great enough to slide to 2nd behind Leetch ahead of Chelios
Let’s hear from our friends posting here on Carp’s blog…who is the greatest American to ever play in NHL ?
Leetch ? Chelios ? Brett (not born in the US) Hull ? or Frank Brimsek ?
Doodie, we will let our comrades decide who is right…you or me
Yes! Two Contracts – 1 for Dubi and 1 for Luigi (my name for his ‘stache).
ilb
even worse i am in the OR waiting for a surgery to begin so a plastic surg can use my product and i am reading the report while a wait.
cant get enough of you boneheads
US born or player that played for team US?
Lifetime, as I said, hull is best American player(although not US born). I said Brimsek is best US born.
And Lifetime, I’m sure a Rangers blog will have no bias towards Leetch!
Might as well ask people in Boston whether Orr was better than Gretzky.
Leetch. By a mile in my book. Back to work….
Either way…(born here or not)
1. Leetch
2. Chelios
3. Hull
4. Brimsek
That would be order …you are just wrong to try and reverse the order.
So let’s undervalue the guy that does this because other guys potentially could?? Now we are getting into the hypothetical? There probably are a lot of guys that could get 5 EN goals over the course of the season to inflate their goal totals, but they weren’t on the ice and so they didn’t!!
Doodie, all in good fun, tongue in cheek
what is interesting is that there is a forward a defenseman and a goalie
a hockey coach once told me that forwards are a “dime a dozen”
best player from Wawa…Chris Simon!
Uh, if we’re indifferent to where they were born, I’m going with Hull. Leetch was a great player, but Hull is one of the top scoring wingers ever and toward the bottom of a probably a lot of top 10 lists. Leetch isn’t quite that good.
Lifetime, say what you want, think what you want. Hull is the third most prolific goal scorer in the history of the NHL (Gretzky and Bossy being 1 and 2). I’ll take 3rd best goalscorer over a defenseman that wouldn’t even crack top 10 defensemen of all time. I love Leetch. He is my all time favorite Ranger. I wear a Leetch jersey to most games that I go to (sometimes I’ll wear Messier or a blank jersey if I go to a lot of losses in a row to break the streak). But to say he was a better player than Hull is ludicrous.
lifetime
they are
I like saying Wawa, maybe we should change the wombat to Wawa—->
Wicky, I’d gladly strip Dubi’s empty netters.
“So you are obviously saying that there is just self prevelation for todays hockey players and no players with heart, loyalty to franchises anymore.”
I’m saying that pretty much everyone living in this country is more concerned about themselves than their employer. And that most people understand that its that way for everyone else too, not just themselves. And that a majority of the others live in Philadelphia. (And that you sure as hell aren’t going to give back 15% of your salary so your company can hire a well regarded marketing director away from a competitor without hurting their bottom line. Because its not your responsibility to do so.)
wicky,
When the NHL starts deciding games using fighting penalties the Rangers will have found a gem in Prust. Until then he’s worth what the market pays guys that can fight and can actually play hockey. If he hits UFA he could probably be worth more than a Colton Orr or George Parros. But there’s a very good chance that almost any GM in the league would pay Dubinsky $4M rather than Prust $2M.
Actually, I retract, Lemieux was more prolific as well, but he got hurt so damn much, and then there was the Hodgkin’s. Bure was a close 5th.
CTB
that would be better than the stupid skills competition!!
Goal scoring…very impressive
and Dionne is 4th and Gartner 6th all time and you would not rank them very high would you?
You take one very impressive element (goal scoring) and use it as “that’s makes him the best”, but then you don’t consider it for other great goal scorers.
and by the way Leetch may crack the all time top 10 D-men..I would have to make a list to confirm that.
ctb
you are correct, but I don’t think the discrepancy between the 4 mil and 2 mil GMs is a big as many would think.
I love the two main convos going on simultaneously right now, you would almost think this is a hockey blog!!
Hull is Canadian. It’s Leetch. And please don’t explain what dual-citizenship is, kthx.
mister delaware i am not denying that, but dubi isn’t taking less money than he deserves. He is inflating his contract to go into arbitration. I believe a player can be loyal and get paid fairly.
And i hope you know that during arbitration dubi is going to be praising himself, and the rangers organization will be telling the judge what is bad about him, and why he doesn’t deserve the money.
Now sometimes this works out ok if the 2 parties can get over it. Like in lundqvists case, but a lot of times after the arbitration hearing and the contract rewarded. That is usually the last contract with the franchise.
either way, can’t wait for the dubi decision within the next 24 hrs
I wonder what
David Kleinwould have to say about this whole thing?carp
I am going to apologize in advance about the numbers probably dropping when I go back to work on Friday. Someone else will have to “instigate” a few topics!
” I’m taking my talents to…... arbitration ”
LOL@ Dubi Decision
It would be a shock to David Klein to see that the season is in fact over and the Mets have made it back to .500
manny
isn’t that the guy from a fish called wanda?
Lifetime, if Dionne was American, I’d have him near the top of the list as well. Never winning the Cup hurts him.
As for Gartner, if he were American, he would be in the top 10 for sure, but his goal scoring wasn’t as prolific, it was more cumulative. Also never won any hardware, at all. I’ll say this: he would certainly have been the fastest.
Mazzo: If we both agree the player is going high into arbitration knowing the reward will be lower and the team is doing the inverse, why do we blame the player? Dubinsky isn’t accepting the Rangers offer just as much as the Rangers aren’t agreeing to his asking price and neither of us have any idea which side is being less realistic, right? Like Dubinsky might be willing to take $4MM per long term and NY might be refusing to budge from $3.25MM for 3 or more of his UFA years, which we’d all agree is a lowball? Right? So why is the narrative that Dubinsky is selfish when we admit (1) we’d do the same thing and (2) we have no real knowledge of the details?
gabs
LOL
“Defending the Boneheads: A Wicky Blog”
done deal
dubi 4 years 22 mil according to brooks. 5.5 per season
Who said we would do the same thing?
GTFO. That’s too much. WAY too much.
Have I been had? Waseka stopped working.
link or its not real
WOW, that’s a lot of money! WTB? That’s more than anyone around here thought he’d even come close to! What does this do to the cap? Wow, just wow! Good for Dubi!
Eric trying to take Orr’s place in the made up news department?
eric
aha ha ha, surely you jest
haha, “link or it’s not real” Agreed, but I have no reason to not believe eric…at least not yet. Don’t be an ORR. Let ORR be ORR. hahaha. where is counting guy?
wombat is down wombat is down!!!!!! PANIC!!!!!!
” Surely you can’t be serious? ”
” I am serious… and don’t call me Shirley. ”
Doodie… yea you were had on that one.
There is no twitter activity regarding Dubinsky signing a deal.
So everyone off the ledge!
ha i pulled an ORR. IT FELT GREAT.
doodie almost lost it
eric
do you need a cigarette now?
If he goes to arb. I am saying he gets around 4 to 4.5 mill.
or a sandwich?
done deal…wicky for a lawnmower and corona beer 6 pack.
eric—BOOOO to you, sir. I too checked the widgets and didn’t see anything, but had no reason to not believe this eric character. No Christmas card for you this year!
sorry guys just wanted to stir it up some more around here.
CCCP
that’s all I’m worth to you? Some cheap mexican beer and what I hope is at least a riding mower?
Eric knew when he dropped that fake news, it would be like lighting a fuse on a firecracker… sit back, and wait for the show.
LMAO @ Doodie’s GTFO reaction…Oh, this place is priceless. Didn’t eric tell you all he was sitting waiting for surgery to start, bored to death?
Barry Beck July 20th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
And my point was is that if you took away those 5 EN’ers then his goal total is pretty small.
———————————————
im pretty sure if you take away all those blocked shots, Lundqvist would have a lot less wins per season.
$7 + million per for a guy with a whopping .500 or bellow record. (;
eric, I know where you sit!
Small potatoes? but I think trading Lauri Korpikoski was a mistake, I know it was a while ago but he was 19G 21A last season.
I tell you what, the Rangers should be relieved that Jagr didn’t go to the Pens. With Crosby coming back from a head injury, he’s going to be totally untouchable. That + Jagr dangling could have been deadly. If you think the favoritism for Crosby was bad before, it’s probably going to be even more disgusting this season.
ILB and Doodie
LMFAO you guys!
wicky
don’t blame me! that’s what market dictates these days!
i kid i kid! of course you worth a lot more to me! at least another 6 pack! :P
PANIC!!!! PANIC!!!
GOOSE I CAN’T REACH THE EJECTION BUTTON. YOU’RE GONNA HAVE TO PUNCH US OUT!
billy
the truest statement today
CCCP
thanks…I think
Manny
LMFAO
I wonder if thuresson has a shot at the big club roster?
Doodie,
I would put Leetch 1 or 2 in the greatest american player list. there are 2 guys that did not get mentioned who would have to at or near the top. Neal Broten, and Mike Modano.
I have to admit, I had a cold last February and in one game alone I inadvertently knocked Dubi off his skates three times by sneezing.
(major eye roll)
no, thank you, wicky.
cccp
no no, thank you
Doodie, I agree with you…Gartner was the fastest. I think I remember during a skills competition that he holds the first, second and maybe third fastest times for all time. (Federov might be in there somewhere)
just want to reiterate that you guys are really nuts. It’s July! Holy carcillo.
And one minor point, if you skip camp because you don’t have a contract, that’s not a holdout. You don’t go to camp without a contract … well, most sane people don’t.
I wouldn’t.
Also, it’s only $1.25 per comment during the off-season. So don’t go back to work, wick.
I think the way the Rangers handled Dubi’s contract negotiation last time has unfairly hurt Dubi’s “public appeal”
Orr’s done his best to promote ill will towards Dubi ever since.
bull dog, as I said, if we are talking “American” as opposed to US-born, then I think Hull is #1. If we are talking US born players, then Leetch is #2 to me. I still think Brimsek is the #1 US-born player, but has the penalty of being a historical player. Fran is probably the only guy here that has seen him play.
As for what comes after Leetch, I’d probably go Mullen, Chelios, Modano, LaFontaine, Broten, Richter, Housley, Roenick, LeClair.
If Rod Langway counted (think Dany Heatley-esque style citizenship), I would slot him between Chelios and Modano. If he had ever won the Cup, I’d probably put him ahead of Chelios.
Bulldog, I think behind Leetch, you have to put Chelios (3 times a Norris winner) before bringing Modano or the under-rated Broten into the conversation.
i CAN’T wait and see how Callahan will handle his situation with contract! CAN’T WAIT!
Carp, how would you weigh in on our US hockey debate?
Who was the greatest American hockey player, even if not necessarily US-born (in other words, counting Brett Hull)?
cccp its probably going to directly relate to what happens with dubi’s situation, and the money he gets.
Leetch was waaaaay overrated and a the second worst captain in ranger history next to jagr!
(you’re welcome carp)
omit the “a” after the and please!!
after jagr, not next to….sorry folks
a hattie on errors
hull
chelios
leetch
mullen
modano
housley
is my order
so if Callahan ends up in arbitration… what would be his nickname? Greedyhan? Callblowski?
That’s two days of hatties on errors in a row wicky!
and a bag lady
Greedyhands.
manny
guess I should get more money, hatties on errors are like empty netters
he should get a $ on his jersey instead of a C
again
hattie
What in the sam hell is going on around here?
bag lady x 2
manny?
Dubi made $635K and the Rangers offered him less money – 1 year at $522.5K, then went to $700K mid Sept.
Who was jerkin who?
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/rangers/item_Sq8SJoXtwwoELvW8ClVkdN
Leetch was the second best captain they’ve had in my lifetime. Well, maybe tied with Dave Maloney and Barry Beck. But better than Kisio, way better than Drury, Jagr … who else was captain when Jagr turned it down?
I can’t disagree more about Leetch’s captaincy, as one who was there for every day of it.
But you’re welcome, wick.
Jan 19 “The Rangers just announced that Brandon Dubinsky will miss three to four weeks with a stress fracture in his left leg.” – Daily News
Dubi only missed 5 games
Carp, I think he was joking. Playing on your repeated support for Leetch as captain.
forgot about Joey Mullen. it is not a bad list of American players, thats for sure.
ilb,
Amen with that work comment!
not a bad list, no, but compare it to a list of Canadian players and it seems kinda crappy.
no love Jeremy Roenick on the list of great US players, eh ?
over 500 goals over 1200 points
what about Keith Tkachuk? or Mike Richter?
JR takes the best american born player in a game. Nhl 94 he was a beast.
He’s towards the bottom of my list. Sure, he’s got all those numbers, but it took him almost 1400 games.
JR was the best at destroying furniture and mangling the English language and getting job after job for being a buffoon.
wicky?
I’ve got Richter in there.
Tkachuk is terrible. Won 3 playoff series in his entire career!
adysmal?
“getting job after job for being a buffoon.”
Milbury is the all-time champ there Carp.
In fact, I’d say Milbury was the Gretzky of hockey buffoonery.
Is the Gretzky, rather. Roenick is Crosby by comparison.
Eurotrash?
Those two guys (JR and Milbury) are a laugh a minute! A regular Abbot and Costello!
Doodie, how many Canadiens are on the list of all time baseball, football or basketball players ?
That comment was from beneath the peanut gallery
Calla-hand me more money.
That should be his pre-arbitration name if he’s not signed. Or is Captain Callahan above the vitriol that gets directed at Dubinsky? I mean body checks and blocked shots make up for not scoring goals but still getting paid a bunch right? (sarcasm to enhance my point)
I mean if you’re going to crucify Dubinsky for getting $4 point anything mil or more a year and not being a 25 goal scorer, then the same rules have to apply to Callahan.
And don’t even begin to type intangibles.
I agree . Millbury three times the buffoon of Roenick, and four times the buffoon of an average person
new post.
Brett Hull counts as a USA player.
He also was the funniest player of all time. He sounded like Winnie The Pooh (after throwing back a couple beers and smoking a pack of cigarettes a day). He also cursed on national TV after a bad call in the 96 World Cup of Hockey.
in regards to Dubi’s possible arbitration hearing
and ongoing contract talks
i’m just wondering
who is his agent?
because this is the second time that it’s been difficult
signing him to a contract so
either Dubi has a higher sense of self
than what is shown in reality
or his agent does.
no, i’m not saying trade him unless a VERY good deal
presents itself
but if one is to believe Uncle Larry
Dubi is not in the same class as Bobby Ryan
at least not as consistent
yes, i know there’s posturing in negotiations
there’s stuff that leaks that’s true and untrure
but
it’s a FACT that this is the 2nd time Dubi is up for
a contract and it’s not getting done easily (again)
unlike Hank or Boyle or Gabby or Richards or Cally or…
so,
what’s the problem?
or
better
who’s the problem?