What Horace Greeley said

332

You know. “Go West young man.”

I understand that the Rangers have to put up with some odd scheduling because they play in the World’s Most Famous and Busiest, which this week, for example, is hosting some basketball event.

But, geez, a West coast swing with 14 games left? When almost everybody is playing conference-only games? And not traveling across the continent? This one, I don’t get, and I even understand the whole starting next season in Europe, and then on the road because of the Garden renovation.

This odd-time two-game trip to California comes after the Ranger not once, but twice, played three in four days in which the third was a 12:30 matinee. Why The Face?

That all said, I love the West coast late starts now that I don’t have to make the trip and watch deadlines disappear. I’m a night person, so it’s kind of cool that I can watch the games late. Those of youse who have actual normal jobs, well, I feel for you.

——————-

So I guess all is well again? I spent the last five days, and will spend today, and most of the next two weekends, covering hoops all over the state, and didn’t see much of the last three games. But I have a good idea what happened, and it seems from reading the comments section that most of you have stepped back off the ledges.

I actually can’t believe how negative it got here — though it was sure good for the traffic numbers. I thought I was at Citi Field.

Especially crazy — only because I can’t find a harsh enough word — was the few who started talking about firing the coach. Huh?

This coach has gotten you all what you have wanted since, oh, 1997. He’s promised to run a program of rebuilding the core with young players, of developing and teaching those young players, and keeping them, and living with their hiccups and throwups, and not abandoning the plan and spinning the wheels just to make a desperate attempt to make the playoffs. He’s built — in his word — an identity, and gotten a team that plays hard, works hard, never gives up, never mails it in, is tough and physical and aggressive.

And because the Rangers lost a few in a row, because their playoff position had become tenuous, you wanted him fired? Heck, if they lose their last 14 and don’t make the playoffs, he shouldn’t be fired, because he has done the right thing for the organization, and not coached for his job. And he won’t be fired.

Plus, they’re going to make the playoffs. And if Henrik Lundqvist and Marian Gaborik step up, they’re going to be dangerous in the playoffs.

——————-

Two more things. First, a friend of mine, Nick Spano, has a pretty nutso sports blog, Floppingout.com. You can check it out here.

Second, our generous Bonehead ticket donor has another pair. So we’re going to do one of those simple contests where we predict the scores of one of the two games on the trip. Details to follow tomorrow or Thursday.

Games that matter tonight: Leaves at Islanders; Sabres at Penguins; Bruins at Habs.

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332 Comments

  1. Good morning, boneheads!

    If you havent done it yet, I think you should read Fran’s last comment in the previous thread.

  2. cw, thanks for the link. Everybody should read it, something to think about. Depending on the context, 400 can be a small number. In the Sun article it’s a huge number.

    Have a great day Heads.

  3. Carp,

    I think the ledge jumpers and coach firers around here are as such for a simple reason, and while i agree with you i can understand where they are coming from as well. They watched a team play a great first half, score some goals, bang bodies, block shots and despite the youth look like a team destined for the playoffs (more then just 1 round as well). Especially with all the injuries we faced we saw something special in these guys. Now to have them playing the way we expected them to play from the get go is a bit disapointing when seeing what they are capable of. So i think theres a bit more of a “what the hell” mentality being manifested through the said ledge jumpers and coach firers because a lot of people dont understand that this is what happens with a young team. They go on a tear and seem to be “getting it” then they drop off badly for a while. While i can accept this and understand this team is built to last rather then built for fast(satisfaction) i think its easy to see and sympathise with the other side of the fence as well.

  4. gregm_section403 on

    Carp,

    I agree Torts is the best thing to happen to the Rangers since….well, it’s been a while since something good happened. Torts should not be fired.

    However, you wrote “Plus, they’re going to make the playoffs.”??

    I’m not so sure. Even if the Rangers play NHL 500 the rest of the way or play slightly better than that, they only have 45-52% chance of getting the 8th spot.

    And I’m not so worried about the Rangers, I’m scared to death of a certain team across the river.

    Worst case ever (maybe even worse than last year’s season-ending loss to the Flyers): Losing the final game of the season (April 9, at home) to the team from the Rock and missing the playoffs by a point and watching the Debbies squeak in.

    http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/Eastern/Atlantic/Rangers.html

  5. Great link, CW..The NHL will have to look into this, sooner or later… Probert’s case is either just a beginning, or it’s an aberration….

    LW3H- yes :-)

  6. Therealmikeynj on

    Carp, any word on drury? Is he with the team or at home? I know he’s done for the season but for to think he’s going nuts nor playing and being with the team?

  7. Buenos Dias Cabezas Huesos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Mira, todos esos puntos de exclamación)

  8. No. Soy Americana. Pero, yo estudio espanol en la escuela. Ahora, hablo muy mal. Mi esposa es puertorriqueña pero ella no habla espanol. Tengo que aprender así que puedo enseñar a nuestros niños!

  9. Great article cw, sometimes we forget our star players are also husbands, fathers and regular guys too.

    I still dont get why the league doesnt do more to sort out head injuries, especially concussions caused by hits – why not do some more research into headgear or make the Messier lid the standard equipment?

    IMO – Fighting is always going to be part of the game when its played with such speed and aggression, what i dont like is the pre-arranged goon v goon fight, i appreciate its a way to get your team going but i’d rather see more players like Prust who can play, kill penalties and can fight to defend a team-mate rather than this pre-arranged goon-dancing that goes on.

  10. It’s a great question! Tiki? Nyr? Gab? CT? Where are all these folks? Tony? Hello? Is this thing on?

    Ilb – it’s all good. I need the help on my Spanish! Rosetta stone is not doing the trick. Going to Spain helped a lot. It’s hard to learn languages in your 30’s without immersion and without anyone to really feel comfortable speaking to.

  11. No, yo soy Ruso. Mi esposa es Colombiana. Ella nacio en Nueva York. Ella habla Espanol bien.

  12. manfried, my wife to be is mexican….great way to ‘perfeccionar tu espanol’ is to watch telenovelas with spanish subtitles. You will pick up a ton more this way rather than watching with english subtitles. I picked one or two shows a night for some time, and set that aside for study.

  13. That’s a really great Idea Mao. I always do the English ones but they speak so much quicker than I can comprehend.

    I actually spent a few months living in Israel and spent HOURS watching Mexican telenovellas with hebrew (or arabic) subtitles. It was so hard to try to understand a show with TWO languages I am not strong in. It really, really helped my Spanish.

  14. Doodie Machetto on

    “Chicas latinas son el mejor”

    Wouldn’t that be las mejores?

    I don’t know any Spanish.

  15. Doodie Machetto on

    Carp, I think what really will help take the heat off of Torts if they miss the playoffs is that the Knicks will make the playoffs, so Dolan still gets SOME playoff revenue to help fund the Garden renovations.

  16. Maybe? I “get by” with my Spanish. You got the idea of what I meant. I find being not so perfect makes me endearing when traveling.

  17. Doodie – I have been trying to defend your rules about TRUE hat tricks. After you admonished me I began to believe in the rules. No one listens to me though.

  18. Stranger Nation on

    Fighting could end tomorrow and interest and market share for NHL would not suffer one iota. Look at college hockey – they do not allow fighting and the game is still awesome to watch – with the emotions of the crowd, probably a better game. It is already on the down turn, but what are the big 2011 NHL stories – Pens/Isles, Habs/bruins, Crosby concussion – on a national level. Not a way to build the sport.

    Is it enjoyable to watch a good scrap, sure, but enough already, the game has too much skill and action to need fighting. Refs need to call the ongoing boarding and charging penalties that pretty much go uncalled for during the season and even more so during playoffs. Lack of consistency in the officiating is the biggest challenge for the league. Look at the definition of these two penalties and watch a game to see how little of this is called. The league needs to enforce the rules it has on books.

    It gets to a point where even a good hit causes people to want to duke it out. Game misconduct for a fighting major will end the practice forever.

  19. Doodie Machetto on

    Yeah. Saying “hat trick” should be the equivalent of the fans throwing the hats, not the third goal.

  20. I have a theory that good-clean fighting actually reduces injuries:

    A good, clean fight between two players rarely results in an injury. What leads to most hockey injuries is either hard hits or, more often, dirty hits. If you allow fighting in a regulated manner players can settle things in a way that does not often lead to serious injury. If fighting is not allowed players will have to settle grudges with hard hits, dirty hits and that will lead to more injuries.

  21. Doodie Machetto on

    “Look at college hockey – they do not allow fighting and the game is still awesome to watch – with the emotions of the crowd, probably a better game. ”

    Sorry, but nobody other than the extreme hockey fan or a student of a good hockey school watches college hockey. The Frozen Four is on TV and I remember seeing the Bean Pot sometimes. Nobody cares about it. That’s a really poor example.

    And I like fighting. It would hurt my interest in the sport if it were removed.

  22. Good morning all… the sun is shining in NYC and it’s time for the playoff push. CW thanks for the good read.

  23. Stranger Nation on

    So you would not watch the NHL is fighting was not allowed?

    The Rangers have so few fighting majors over the last 2 months, yet you still watch, correct?

    So you watch hockey whether there is fighting or not?

    __________________________________________________

    Fighting reduces injuries – just ask Boogie or Probert or, oh sorry, you cannot ask Probert anymore…

  24. I knew somebody would bring up the Boogard injury. He aggravated an injury that he already had before the fight.

    Was Crosby hurt fighting?

  25. Stranger Nation on

    Man oh Man – how did he get that injury – gardening?

    Did you watch the Olympics last year? Did you enjoy the hockey? Was their fighting?

    Expand the rinks, get rid of fighting and call the crap penalties already happening in the game.

  26. Olympic hockey isn’t a fair comparison because the tournament lasts a few weeks and it is entirely about your country. In the NHL there are people’s personal reputations on the line and grudges develop over years.

    All you need to say about the olympics is that Malkin and Semin played together without incident.

  27. Doodie Machetto on

    “So you would not watch the NHL is fighting was not allowed?

    The Rangers have so few fighting majors over the last 2 months, yet you still watch, correct?

    So you watch hockey whether there is fighting or not?”

    I would watch it less. I would watch the Rangers just the same but I would watch out of market games less, follow the league less, follow the players less.

    The Olympics were exciting because every team was an All-Star team. It was like watching 10 All-Star games with hitting and actual defense back to back.

    Yes, you can get injured while fighting, but you can get injured on a golf trip too. Ask Erik Johnson. You can get hurt just standing around in the locker room. Ask Dan Boyle.

    BAN GOLF AND LOCKER ROOMS!

  28. Amen. Locker rooms are a virtual minefield of possible injuries. Soapy floors, Wet towels, sweat/mildew stench, sauna areas….don’t get me started!

    Fighting is awesome. I will find reasons to defend it because it is part of the NHL’s tradition of awesome hockey.

  29. Doodie Machetto on

    Skates injure people. Boyle, Zednik, and Malarchuk all have been severely injured by a skate. BAN ICE SKATES!!!

  30. I have a solution to the concussion problem – BAN CONCUSSIONS.

    Solution to injury issues: BAN INJURIES.

  31. Doodie Machetto on

    You know what the difference between guys that fight getting injured and guys that don’t fight getting injured by freak accidents? The guys that fight know that there is a risk of getting hurt from fighting. I bet Dan Boyle had no idea that standing around in the locker room would cut his season in half.

  32. Doodie Machetto on

    The only injury I’ve seen from fighting that the fighter probably did not consider was Taylor Hall’s ankle.

  33. Stranger Nation on

    Going to the extreme to make your argument only proves you do not have much of one.

    No fighting in playoffs (for the most part) but highest ratings… You watch the playoffs, right?

  34. Yea – I am sure Boogard knew that one day his illustrious career of fighting professional Hockey Players would one day put him at risk of injury.

    BAN BOOGARD!

  35. The NHL is run by a bunch of cowardly near-sighted meatheads – this includes the owners, the GMs and the NHLPA.

    They cannot get it into their heads the unless you’re a true fan who knows the game of hockey, the general consensus of hockey overall in the US isn’t much different than rollerderby. There’s a commercial running now (sorry, cannot remember the product – what does that say about it’s effectiveness) where a hockey game is depicted, something happens on the ice and suddenly 2 players wearing opposing jerseys are in Africa with a bunch of lions looking at them.

    The 2 players of course, are engaged in a scrap.

    This is so typical (and it’s not limited to the US either – the same crap happens here in Canada, but not to same extent): That commercial doesn’t depict a skater trying to beat a goalie on a breakaway, or a skater placing a beautiful shot in the top corner.

    Nope, it’s all about fighting. That’s how the NHL and the game of hockey is all too often depicted in the US.

    The NHL does ZERO to help alleviate that by permitting fighting and mildly punishing players who try to main the opposition.

    Idiots – all of them.

    It’s damn shameful….

  36. Why would you argue against fighting?

    That is like arguing that sex isn’t good. Maybe we should get rid of desert following a meal too? Maybe we should get rid of coffee? Maybe we should get rid of girls because they cause injuries (emotional ones)?

  37. And sorry, anyone who thinks that fighting is needed simply doesn’t get it. As some on here rightfully point out, where’s the fighting in college hockey? Where’s the fighting in the POs?

    And where’s the fighting in the Olympics?

    Geeesh, are all of these inferior hockey to what we see in regular season in the NHL?

    I don’t think so….

  38. Manfride and Dudy,

    thunx yu fore the suportt. u no i lik sports of hokey.

    pleez du nott tak fighting awa frum spurt.

    me lyk tu play spurt.

  39. Look – Hockey Rules. The NHL rules. It’s great the way it is. Why bring up an issues that could cause another lockout? Some things are just better left alone.

  40. You got it Boogie. Thanks for reading the blog. I hope you get better soon! Not soon enough to make the playoff roster though!

  41. Doc say lights go dark during day and mi hed hurt lots durin nite.

    the leeg iz gret.

    i mek lotz ov muney.

  42. Doodie Machetto on

    “No fighting in playoffs (for the most part) but highest ratings… You watch the playoffs, right?”

    Yes, but there is more at stake in the playoffs than 2 points.

    As for my examples, I wasn’t going to the extreme, I was going to the absurd, as in, I’m giving you absurd examples and then demonstrating to you how the examples I’m listing don’t have assumed risk, while the example you’ve given does. If two guys willingly drop the gloves, they are both assuming the risks that follow therefrom. But guys on the ice probably aren’t thinking that a skate blade is going to slash their throat, or else everyone would be wearing neck guards.

    As for the perception of hockey in the mainstream public: WHO BYFUGLIEN CARES!? I don’t care if the guy next to me doesn’t like hockey. I know I like it and my viewership is not affected by his.

  43. Nice Doodie. Law School. Assumption of the Risk.

    I love hockey. I know plenty of people that don’t. Their reasons are usually that they don’t understand it. Not that there is too much fighting.

    People still root for Ray Lewis and the Baltimore Ravens and he murdered somebody.

  44. I am pro fighting! there is no way this game will be the same w/o it! NO WAY!

    how many guys really get injured fighting? long term effect? sure…but what doesn’t have long term effect? Staring at the computer monitor all day long will effect your vision… so, BAN MONITORS AND COMPUTERS??

    leave the freaking game alone!

  45. Doodie Machetto on

    Jim: There IS fighting in college hockey, but it’s limited because everyone has to play with a full cage/shield.

    And college hockey, for the most part, sucks. There, I said it. I’d rather watch Juniors than college. Oh, BTW, TONS of fighting in juniors.

    As for the playoffs, there’s more emotion in those games than during the regular season. There’s more at stake than 2 points. If you eliminate fighting, the regular season doesn’t suddenly get more emotional. It stays the same, except now there is no fighting.

    I think the days of the pure goon are over because you need every guy on your team to be able to take an actual shift and contribute, but fighting is still really important.

    To the guy posting as Boogie: Boogaard willingly dropped the gloves. He knew the risks. I didn’t see a gun to his head. If it wasn’t for fighting, he wouldn’t have even made the ECHL. Now he’s earning 1.6 million guaranteed for the next 4 years. Seems like he’s winning to me.

    Again, the Olympics are a BS example. Contract the NHL down to 10 teams and I’d be fine never seeing a fight in a game again since every team would be STACKED.

  46. Doodie Machetto on

    Also, I guarantee that if you ban fighting, there will be more Marty McSorleys, Todd Bertuzzies, Chris Simons, etc.

  47. Doodie Machetto on

    Since this was a pro-fighting hat trick, I’m calling it a Gordie Howe hat trick.

  48. Amen Doodie – Banning fighting will lead to more punk type retaliations and more death, paralysis from blindside hits.

  49. Dudy – i lik winnin and bein pade and makin u smyle.

    sorry, cant remember where car key are

    excuze me, need to go bak to doctor, what iz hiz name agin?

  50. Doodie Machetto on

    Boogie, I suppose you want to ban boxing and MMA too, since those guys are basically doing the same thing as Boogaard, except Boogaard does it on skates. They assume the risks of fighting and do it nonetheless.

    I’ll say this about it too: Boogaard makes a hell of a lot more money for what he does than 95% of boxers and MMAists.

  51. Look – The New Yorker article on CTE said that Hockey actually has a higher concussion rate than the NFL. That rate results from HITS – not from fighting.

    I would must rather be punched in the face then thrown face first into a wall while skating top speed.

  52. Doodie Machetto on

    1.6 million in one year? Other than the very top prize fighters, a fighter is lucky if he can earn that in his entire career.

  53. wow you can stretch the comment box now?? awesome! lol

    Carp, did the LoHud IT guys do this or is it my new Mozilla Firefox 4.0 Beta 12 browser that does that?

  54. Doodie Machetto on

    No question: a hockey player is much more likely to be concussed from a hit than from a fight.

    I have a hard time coming up with players who had their careers ended in a fight, but I can rattle off a list of players who had their careers ended by a hit. I don’t even have to name dirty hits.

  55. Yea I would take Boogie’s life over Joe Rogan any day of the week.

    Let’s not forget to mention the physical quality of the women that Hockey players get over MMA guys.

  56. Doodie Machetto on

    The only way this team makes the playoffs is if Lundqvist is stellar the rest of the way.

  57. Hockey is self policing. Fighting helps this aspect. You take away fighting and stick swinging, cheap shots, blindside hits, etc. will rise in leaps and bounds. Those hits continue to exist because of the instigator rule which tries to dissuade fighitng.

    Matt Cooke gets away with the sht he does because of the instigator penalty. If there was no instigating penalty, guys could go after Cooke without fear of putting their team a man down.

    Less fighting = more cross checks, slew foots, head shots, elbows, etc.

    Go read The Code by Ross Bernstein.

  58. Doodie: Yeah, but Buttman and company care. That’s why there are floundering franchises in places like Atlanta, Phoenix, Florida and elsewhere. Buttman is desperate for a true TV contract with a network that actually can cough up $$ .

    To attract such a network, however, you need a wide fan base and as we all know, Buttman’s thinking was put hockey in non-traditional markets and it will grow. Clearly, it’s not that simple and clearly, the fact that hockey is perceived by many US citizens with same relevance as rollerderby isn’t the sole mitigating factor.

    However, it contributes to the problem.

    It’s beyond stupid to continue to prop up failing franchises with the mindset that the US fan will come while at the same time doing nothing to rectify the neanderthal image the sport/league has. It is in fact, an oxymoron, courtesy of a bunch of morons.

    And I’ve said it before and will say it again: Unfortunately, it’s going to take a paralysis or worse, a death, on the ice due to a fight/goon tactic to finally wake the NHL up (and even that may not happen until the victim and/or victim’s family wins a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the NHL and the NHLPA). I sure don’t want to see something paralyzed or killed but if/when it happens, I sure hope the NHL and NHLPA are brought to their collective knees via the horrific negative publicity and lost $$ that will surely result.

    Idiots…

  59. Bettman sucks. He doesn’t understand hockey at all. He is a business guy. Trying to make loot.

    The best thing he can do to make the NHL more popular is to make the NFL strike and the NBA strike in the same season. People will be forced to watch Hockey.

    Jim – No one is going to die from a fight. Someone will fie from a bad hit. It is WAY more dangerous. Fighting and goon tactics are completely separate issues. I think a bunch of us are contending that fighting actually reduces Goon Tactics.

  60. The NHL is now in a very tough position. That article opened the whole new can of worms. Fleming and Probert were extreme cases. The science of CTE is just evolving. One of the current theories is that one doesn’t have to sustain multiple concussions, or any concussion at all, to develop CTE. Multiple body jolts that transfer to someone’s head may be enough to cause it. There is no knowledge on whether alcohol or drugs may be confounding factors, but that has been suggested too. Hockey is a contact sport. Hits, jolts against the board, accidental collisions happen all the time. Until there is a reliable marker of CTE that can be detected before death it will be difficult to deal with it, and prevent. What they use now is a detection of specific protein within the brain tissue…..

  61. Yup – Spot on Ilb.

    I am sure people get hit, jostled and throw into the boards more often than they get punched.

  62. New Newman: LOLOLOL – that’s the kind of neanderthal mindset that keeps the NHL is the gutter. I guess you don’t watch the POs, especially the last 2 rounds, or watched any Olympics or WJC – no fighting there, yet no rise in stick swinging, etc.

    That’s an old argument that lost it’s clout with the rise of goon vs goon fighting. Your argument that fighting would eliminate the Matt Cooke’s of the world is flawed. There’s nothing to say Matt Cooke has to fight Matt Carkner if there’s no instigator. He can turtle and Carkner doesn’t get 2 minutes, he gets a 5 minute major.

    When is the last time you saw a Cooke (or an Avery for that matter) fight a Carkner or an Orr or a Boogaard? They don’t. They know they’d get their butts kicked, so they turn down any challenges (which rarely come anyways cuz everyone knows who fights who and who doesn’t – which contradicts your fighting polices the game argument bigtime). If you think the only reason those fights don’t occur is because the goon is afraid of the 2 minute instigator penalty well then….there’s not much point in this debate, I guess.

    And how do you justify the fighters patting each other on the back after a fight? What the hell is up with that? If fighting occurs spontaneously out of anger and as way of avoiding me whacking you over the head with me stick and vice versa (ie because we are beyond pissed with each other), there’s no way I’m about to congratulate you after you pound me or I pound you.

    What’s next? Crosby scores a nice goal against the King and the King pats him on the pat for a job well done?

    Geesh….

  63. Boxers, MMA, karate, etc… All those guys shake hands before a fight and after. It’s an honor thing. Men have been competing in this manner forever. It’s human nature to be competitive especially when you mix in money, women and scoring goals and winning time honored trophies.

    Things progress. People don’t hit each other with sticks anymore. People wear helmets. Some guys wear face protector screens. It’s all a natural progression.

    As long as people on earth are murdering, warring, raping, pillaging and invading fighting in Hockey will be the least of our concerns.

  64. Doodie Machetto on

    “That’s why there are floundering franchises in places like Atlanta, Phoenix, Florida and elsewhere. Buttman is desperate for a true TV contract with a network that actually can cough up $$ .”

    No, those teams are floundering due to them being non-hockey markets and the watered-down talent pool of the NHL due to over-expansion. Also, your TV contract theory is BS because VS. is paying the NHL more for TV rights than ESPN ever did.

    As for on-ice death or paralysis, plenty of careers have been ended by clean hits (although I can’t think of any on ice deaths or paralysis from them other than Bill Masterson who wasn’t wearing a helmet, or the European guy whose paralysis gave birth to the no-touch icing rule). Are we going to ban all hitting next?

  65. Doodie Machetto on

    Jim, you’re referring to the pure goon fighter, which I have already stated is obsolete in terms of a hockey sense. If the guy won’t fight, you take his number and run him later. A pure goon is unable to do this because they aren’t fast enough to run anybody.

    I really don’t see what the big deal is: if two guys want to go, let them go.

  66. Doodie Machetto on

    Tell me Boyle’s fight with Shelley had no impact on Sunday’s game. You would be lying to yourself.

  67. Doodie Machetto on

    Oh and Jim, as for the “safety” of college hockey: read up on Travis Roy. BAN HITTING!

  68. So – you just brought it up, Doodie, but the last death I can remember is that BC kid getting hit in between heartbeats and dropping dead on the ice. The next most serious injury I can remember was caused by a skate to the throat. Lots of blood ensued.

    Also, there is NO fighting in Football and they have TONS of CTE and other brain related diseases.

  69. AND – what about the Lacrosse goalie that died by getting hit with a Lacrosse ball in between heartbeats? Do we have to ban pucks because they can hurt you? No fighting in Lax I might add.

  70. That was a pretty weak hat trick by me if I do say so myself. I call it weak because of the OVECHTRICK in the beginning. A hat trick nonetheless.

  71. ilb: Sorry, I simply disagree. The game has evolved past the fighting’s required as an outlet.

    And before it gets posed (because I know it will): When a fight breaks out, who leaves the arena? Who doesn’t watch?

    No one and everyone respectively.

    That doesn’t make it acceptable. Hell, if that’s the argument, then let the players whack each other with sticks, too – everyone will watch that, too, if it’s permitted via handing out 5 minute rests in the penalty box.

    What professional league sanctions fighting as an outlet (besides leagues that are about fighting, of course)? None, save for the NHL which not coincidentally is mired in a negative image in much of the US and has huge problems with players attempting to maim each other.

    Buttman’s an idiot, but he’s a muse for the owners – the same owners who needed a salary cap to save them from themselves.

    Near-sighted idiots is what they are and the always silent NHLPA shares that dubious distinction.

    Shame on all of them.

    Final point: For those who advocate fighting: Do you have (or did you have) boys playing hockey? If so, do you support your boys fighting in hockey? Do you like to see your boy pound the snot out of someone in a kid’s hockey game (or get the snot kicked out of him)?

    If your answer is yes, well then no more debating for us….

  72. Jim – it seems like you are making some overarching argument about violence in society. I am assuming you have the same problem with the Die Hard movies that you have with NHL fighting policies?

  73. Doodie: I don’t get your point about Travis Roy….what’s that got to do with fighting????

  74. Manfried: Huh? You’re comparing the game of hockey to a fictional movie series? I’m confused….

  75. Jim – I guess I am asking you a question:

    Since you think that Fighting in Hockey has a negative effect on the youth (an assumption I made because you said you wouldn’t want to see your son beating somebody up) do you also believe that violence in movies and video games has the same effect?

  76. I said – it’s an assumption I made because you said you didn’t want your son fighting. So I assume you have the attitude that people don’t like violent displays in their children and I am asking if you think that the fighting in the NHL has a negative effect on our youth similar to the negative effect in video games and movies.

  77. Doodie Machetto on

    In pee-wees or bantams? No, I wouldn’t want my kid to fight. If he makes juniors or something like that, I’d be OK with him fighting. I’d hope that he knew when to drop them, when to keep them on, and when to stop throwing (no hitting guys that are down or have hurt their hands or something).

    As for fighting in football, I’d be OK with that. The “dropping the gloves” equivalent could be taking off the helmets. It’s a sign that two guys have consented to a physical confrontation. If they could govern it the same way hockey is governed: i.e., two guys at a time, a penalty to playing time, etc. I’d be OK with that.

    As for soccer, I don’t think it would work for three reasons: First, there is nothing to be equivalent to dropping the gloves, a clear sign of consent to a fight. Second, with the continuous clock, it would be too difficult to capture the amount of time lost to a fight. Third, players who get to wait on the sideline would be getting free rest, and it would be a cheap way to get a fresher man on the field without using a substitution.

  78. I guess all-in-all it’s a confusing question with a lot of assumptions. You can ignore it. This is what happens when you post during work! Sorry.

  79. I mentioned kids playing hockey and fighting to see if those supporting fighting in hockey with kids playing hockey support fighting in the leagues their kids play in.

    If you’re a parent who’s into watching his kid fight in a game then my argument to ban it overall is lost on you and there’s no point in continuing further.

    If, on the other hand, you support fighting but don’t want your son involved in a league that supports fighting, I ask what the real difference is in terms of it being an outlet and/or basically harmless and/or if they wanna fight let ’em.

  80. hold on guys… let Jim tell us how he REALLY feels about fighting in hockey! lol

    He makes it sound as if there are career ending fights in the NHL every night!

  81. I guess Doodie summed it up for me. I would not want my kid fighting until a certain progression level in Hockey. I would want him to eventually know how to protect himself, stand up for his teammates and represent himself well on the Ice.

  82. Doodie Machetto on

    Jim: my point about Travis Roy is that he was paralyzed from trying to throw a simple body check. If the idea is to remove potential sources of paralysis or other injuries, you would have to remove hitting.

    But even that wouldn’t completely remove the risk. Remember Shanahan and Knuble’s collision? Completely accidental.

    Hockey is a contact sport that is incredibly dangerous, even when you aren’t doing something dangerous. You assume the risk of injury by playing. Fighting is just an extension of that. If you drop the gloves, you are accepting whatever consequences that follow.

    My point is, if you don’t like fighting in hockey, saying it’s because of the risk of injury doesn’t logically follow. Two fighters have accepted the risks, just the same way every player accepts the risk that every time they lace up their skates, even by some freak accident, it could be the last time.

    If you want to say something about sportsmanship, relevancy, or barbarity you would be far more successful. But complaining about the risk of injury just does not follow.

  83. Here’s one thing the league could easily do: Get the GMs/coaches to agree to not have the goonery, the staged idiot fights. They have nothing to do with hockey at all — and simply are a cheap way to get people in the building out of their seats.

    Goon vs. goon is useless.

    And you know what’s even more stupid: The “message” fights at the end of lopsided playoff games.

    this is the stuff that needs to be cleaned up. Not the Dubinsky-Richards fights, or Iginla-Thornton.

  84. Jim

    i guess you haven’t watched enough of soccer! Soccer players fight all the time! Kicking each other in the face, groins, and even stabbing each other on the field! True story!

  85. Doodie Machetto on

    Jim the difference is in a matter of scale. Kids fighting in pee-wees and bantams is unnecessary because it wouldn’t serve any purpose. Fighting in hockey serves many purposes, all of which would be lost on children who do not yet have the complexity of emotional intelligence to grasp what they are.

  86. Doodie Machetto on

    Carp: I agree entirely. I even have already said that the pure goon has become obsolete.

    Jarome Iginla fought Vinny Lecavalier early in game 3 of the ’04 finals. Flames win 3-0.

  87. Doodie Machetto on

    Mike Richter’s career was ended by Chris Tamer’s knee. Ban knees?

    If there was a ban on knees, then Pavel Bure would be a superstar again.

  88. Fighting didn’t make hockey more attractive to a casual fan. Banning it wouldn’t make it less attractive to a die hard fan, especially if you ban staged fighting. They should also eliminate the instigator rule. But you can not eliminate the whole essence of contact sport, and that’s why the CTE issue puts the NHL in very precarious position.

  89. It’s important to remember that hockey has a long list of “unspoken” rules when it comes to fighting. We all get mad when a heavyweight bruiser picks on a little guy. That is because there are rules governing fighting. Fighting is allowed to serve a very important purpose in the game. The right types of fights are necessary.

  90. Jagr messed up his shoulder pretty bad while trying to hit Gomez! Not exactly a head injury but a serious injury nonetheless that cost us a great year and Jagr was never the same after the shoulder surgery!

    BAN GOMEZ!

  91. The Rangers tend to get royally screwed by the NHL schedule makers. They’d play four in five nights, or six in eight days, then sit around four straight days with no matches. They play the most matches than every other team, with their division rivals always having games in hand. To top it off, they play on The World’s Most Terrible Ice. Until the Rangers get their very own arena, it’s unlikely any of us alive today will ever see them in a Stanley Cup Finals again.

  92. So far today we have banned:

    Ice
    Ice Skates
    Slapshots
    Pucks
    Gomez
    Players
    Walls
    Concussions
    Hitting
    Monitors
    Computers
    Knees
    Legs

  93. Right!

    So far today we have banned:

    Ice
    Ice Skates
    Slapshots
    Pucks
    Gomez
    Players
    Walls
    Concussions
    Hitting
    Monitors
    Computers
    Knees
    Legs
    Locker Rooms
    Golf

  94. im thinking of getting a projector to play the dubinksy-richards fight on my walls at work as a form of video art…. its nearly as good as looking at some of Caravaggio’s work! God bless the Dubinksy!!!

  95. Carp, I agree completely with you. We will make the playoffs. As for the people that are worried about the Devils their push I think is a little to late. Torts needs to stay and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn’t understand the point of this season playoffs or not!

  96. Doodie Machetto on

    punkedpuck, it’s not the timing of the Devils’ push that you should question, it’s whether they can sustain the pace. If they keep up this pace, they can finish as high as 6th.

  97. I think Jim got upset with us…

    i mean… everything has a potentially dangerous outcome. Take fluoride for example…it prevents cavities but fluoride is POISON! But everyday we brush our teeth with fluoride toothpaste and then show-off our cavity free teeth!

    BAN TEETH BRUSHING!

  98. So far today we have banned:

    Ice
    Ice Skates
    Slapshots
    Pucks
    Gomez
    Players
    Walls
    Concussions
    Hitting
    Monitors
    Computers
    Knees
    Legs
    Locker Rooms
    Golf
    Teeth Brushing

  99. Doodie Machetto on

    The Devils are 20-2-2 in their last 24. That’s unheard of. If they did that over a whole season it would smash the regular season records for most points and most wins.

  100. The head shots are ugly and the league needs to start pushing some harsh penalties on them. It isn’t going to stop them but it will reduce the amount that happen. Football has the same problem and they are still working on a solution.

    As for fighting really I can’t beleive this is still being talked about. IT BELONGS IN HOCKEY! All of us have seen the ice tilt one way or another off of one good fight.

  101. I’ll say it again. Beat out Carolina, and make the playoffs. Beat out Carolina and it doesn’t matter what the Devils do. That’s my opinion.

    Doodie, I think it was Martin Gelinas’ knee that ended Richter’s career. Ban Martin Gelinas!

    And Mike Keane ended LaFontaine’s career. Ban Mike Keane!

  102. So far today we have banned:

    Ice
    Ice Skates
    Slapshots
    Pucks
    Gomez
    Players
    Walls
    Concussions
    Hitting
    Monitors
    Computers
    Knees
    Legs
    Locker Rooms
    Golf
    Teeth Brushing
    Martin Gelinas
    Mike Keane
    NJ Devils

  103. I understand the Devils have been killing since the coaching change. Even if they do make it I don’t think it will knock our boys out. I mite be a little off on saying they wont make it.

  104. Doodie Machetto on

    Yeah, the only thing stopping the Devils now is endurance. If they can keep up this pace, they’re in.

    I’m worried about our boys a little bit. Buffalo has been playing pretty well and have so many games in hand. I think they actually will be the barometer, not Carolina. I think Carolina will have a tough time and one of Toronto or New Jersey is who will be pressing just outside of the playoffs, with Carolina in 10th.

  105. Taylor figured out a way to get out of his belly band and his doggie diaper. He managed to get his pee pee out of both and pee pee on the carpet. And poo too!

    Ban the belly band and doggie diaper!

  106. Tiki – I don’t think those can make the Ban List for the day……I will note the product names and avoid them at all times.

  107. Doodie Machetto on

    I looked it up. Definitely Marchant on Richter, and Beuk got the bad concussion from the Johnson sucker punch, but returned and was concussed a few days later, this time for good. I can’t find who did that to him, but it was against the Hurricanes. Gelinas was on the team at the time, so maybe it was him.

  108. I only wanted them to make the ban list for the day. Dont avoid those products at all times. Lawrence Taylor is a sneaky little felllow, a puppy unlike any other. Im going to try and find an extra small belly band for him.

  109. So far today we have banned:

    For Good:
    Ice
    Ice Skates
    Slapshots
    Pucks
    Gomez
    Players
    Walls
    Concussions
    Hitting
    Monitors
    Computers
    Knees
    Legs
    Locker Rooms
    Golf
    Teeth Brushing
    Martin Gelinas
    Mike Keane
    NJ Devils

    For the Day:
    Belly Band
    Doggie Diaper

  110. Doodie Machetto on

    “Lawrence Taylor is a sneaky little felllow”

    Not sneaky enough to avoid trying to buy cocaine from undercover officers or having to now serve 6 years of probation and registering as a sex offender for the underage prostitution.

  111. Olga Folkyerself on

    Since almost every team employs a goon or “goonish” player, just eliminate one skater from each teams bench. With a smaller roster teams would give up their least productive player, the Cap would stretch farther and the talent pool would not be as weak with all the non-productive goons gone. BTW- you would have to give up the instigator rule too.

    Goons would disappear and the teams would improve.

    Don’t forget I Banned Sather, too.

  112. There it is!

    I love LT. He is innocent of all charges. Except most of them. Because he has basically admitted it. Many times over.

    He is one GREAT interview.

  113. Ok – I will add Sather to the list and hold it off the board until the end of the day since it is getting long enough to probably annoy some people.

    Thanks for the reminder!

  114. Oy Oy Oy Oy! I was just talking about Tiki Jay’s puppy.

    When I was in Philly with Mama and the Fozzies, I saw a Tiki cat food and dog food!

    Tiki bar

    Tiki dog/cat food

    Tiki pole

    When Tiki grows up, and she eventually asks her daddy who or what she was named after, what shall I tell her? I certainly can’t tell her Tiki Barber! I think Ill tell her she was born in a Tiki Bar. :)

  115. Wasn’t it that goon in LA (Johnson)? who punched Beuk in the back of the head and he went down and hit head on the ice?

    I forget Richter. I just remember him getting the puck in the side of the head and he was never same.

    As for Gaborik’s concussion…since it was out of the clear blue…I say we ban the sky above us….

  116. Carp

    Agree on the “message” fights, but I’d put Sunday’s Richards/Dubinsky fight in the same category. Richards was spoiling for a fight simply because his team was losing. And as I said at the time, the whole argument that it could change the momentum of a game is garbage. Unless we count the Flyers quickly going from 2-0 to 4-0 down as a momentum shift.

    Same with the Talbot/Carcillo fight in the playoffs that Penguins fans always bring up – I don’t believe getting beaten up in a fight triggers a team to suddenly start playing better.

    Don’t have a problem with Boyle engaging with Shelley – it was the right thing to do – but I think the tangible impact on results of fights like that is way overblown.

  117. I think that Torts did reach one conclusion though, that he could no longer suffer the d zone youthful mistakes of MDZ when it so affected the other 22 guys on the team, standings wise. he gave him too much rope imo, too many games where Eminger should have been in there instead of MDZ.

    I am not giving up on MDZ, just saying that he is not yet ready for the bigtime role, his d zone positioning and reads need lots of improvement and development before he is ready.

  118. Manfried March 8th, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    YES! WooHoo! I ask again.. Will you marry me?! :)

    Taylor is a chihuahua, with a heart murmur and doggie anxiety. He’s also losing all his hair and perpetually has an allergy that makes him scratch his ears constantly. He bites when he gets afraid, he’s bitten both of us hundreds of times, and they hurt! He just had a rash the other day and was acting differently, so I gave him a quarter of a Benadryl and he was perfect by the next day.

  119. Doodie Machetto on

    homer,

    It was Johnson that punched Beuk, but he returned for a few games before Gelinas’ knee barely clipped him. He never recovered from that.

    Richter took Tamer’s slapshot but returned until he took Marchant’s knee to the noggin and then he was done for good.

    Gaborik said it was a Brooks Orpik hit that rung his bell. He didn’t realize it was a concussion at the time.

  120. Doodie Machetto on

    He’s also losing all his hair… He bites when he gets afraid, he’s bitten…hundreds of times, and they hurt! He just had a rash the other day…

    If you said that about LT, I would believe you.

  121. Olga Folkyerself on

    If you get hit and hear bells ringing then you probably need to get checked out… :)

  122. Doodie – Good one. I feel badly for Taylor! I had a dog with anxiety and she took melatonin pills so she could calm down.

    Tiki – I am already engaged to a wonderful Giants/Rangers/Yankees fan from Flushing.

  123. Ria (the silent bonehead) on

    Michael Sauer’s brother who was a football player is also dealing with head related issues since he retired in 2002. According to the article I read he began drinking heavily, would drink 4 pots of coffee a day just to keep himself wired, he even felt like his family would be better off if he died.

  124. Okay, Doodie. Thanks for the witty remarks. Im not going into that. Im talking about a puppy I adore and that’s it. And YES, he perfectly resembles his namesake.

  125. Manfried – Congratulations on being engaged. Good luck on all your future endeavors together.

  126. Mister Delaware on

    Can we assume the Kardashian’s have concussed someone at some point and ban them too? That would make my day.

  127. I am in favor of banning the one married to Lamar Odom but not the other two. I am in favor of canceling their show and perhaps silencing them for a while. Not banning though. I like looking at them.

  128. Yorktown Ranger on

    Pronger was knocked unconscious taking a puck to the chest when he was with the Blues. Another reason to ban pucks

  129. Ria (Cabezas Huseos Silencio)

    Late night games RULE. It gives me a reason to stay up past 11 and pretend I am young again.

  130. Doodie Machetto on

    “Pronger was knocked unconscious taking a puck to the chest when he was with the Blues. Another reason to ban pucks”

    Actually, since it was Pronger, it’s not that good of a reason.

  131. Good afternoon, ‘heads!!

    Manny, lot’s banning today, huh? LOL.

    “And Mike Keane ended LaFontaine?s career. Ban Mike Keane!” – Carp, I couldn’t agree more!

    We’re talking LT, again? Oh boy…

  132. >>…I think the tangible impact on results of fights like that is way overblown.

    I’m with you a 100% on that one; that whole momentum changing argument is pure fantasy. I have no idea why hockey people keep repeating that nonsense. I never liked fighting and never will, although I do understand it may be necessary in certain situations.

  133. It was Matt Johnson that really ended Beukeboom’s career with that sucker punch … but few remember that Beukeboom was cold-cocked by an Owen Nolan elbow in the playoffs in Quebec in ’95. He obviously was concussed, and came back very soon, if not the next game.

    And I have no problem with two guys who can play the game wanting to fight. None. I don’t care what Richards’ intent was … and it seemed his intent was to hit some Rangers to fire up his team, not to start a fight. Again, no problem as far as I’m concerned.

  134. Doodie Machetto on

    JBytes, I think the value can be overblown, but sometimes it really does change a game.

  135. Injuries from fighting aren’t nearly as prevalent as from hits, goon tactics, etc and that wasn’t my point.

    My point is that fighting is no longer needed – the argument that it’s an outlet to avoid stick work is IMO, silly and an insult to those who play in a league where fighting is permitted. Watch the POs and the Olympics and lots of other hockey where fighting is banned and you don’t see an over abundance of stickwork.

    My argument is also that it serves to make the NHL look bushleague to many, including plenty of who reside in the market the NHL hierarchy is so desperately pursuing – the US.

    It’s passe and time for the idiots who run the NHL to realize it and have some courage for ONCE and get rid of it.

  136. Carp: Your suggestion the NHL requests that the coaches remove the staged fights is interesting but how in the world would you ever police it?

    OMG, if you’re relying on the coaches to act in good faith, forget it. Furthermore, how the heck do you gauge a staged fight vs a spontaneous fight (the latter of which rarely happen anymore).

  137. NYR finally. Man. Where the heck have you been!? Ban Something!

    Right now I will ban you showing up after 11AM!

  138. Doodie: If you are serious that you’d watch hockey less if there was no fighting, we can agree to disagree on the subject.

  139. It is absolutely nonsense to stop fight in hockey. I think we need more fights. For example instead of OT or SO let players to fight each other, if nobody win then goalies, after coaches and finally fans will fight and decide who win. And by the way teams can start to fight at the beginning of the game instead of all these silly moves and boring play with small puck.
    I think soon all sports will copy hockey system. Just imagine in chess two players can sit almost all day long without move and at the end it can be boring tied. Let them fight to use chess figures, chess board, after chairs and so on.
    Very soon all variety of sports becomes only one, and nobody complained that for example baseball show on TV more than hockey and soccer. Only one sport on one channel without stop around the world, with simple rules understand from child to women bring peace and joy.

  140. I completely agree with Carp on this issue. Spontaneuos, non-staged Fighting that happens when 2 guys who can actually play the game drop the gloves, like the Richards-Dubi fight, are completely fine with me and I think most fans.

    What needs to end is the carrying of goons on the roster, guys who get very little ice time, and their only role is to fight each other in staged, pre-arranged bouts that happen right after a faceoff, after they talk to each other and arrange the bout.

    The Gillies and Boogards of the league are dinosaurs.

    Keep fighting, just weed out the guys who do nothing but….

  141. Jim, if the GMs want to get rid of the goons who can’t play, and then realize that they could clear up cap space and a roster spot for somebody who can actually play the game, they could collectively do it.

    And a three-year-old could spot a staged fight. It’s any fight between two goons, two fourth-line cement-heads who can’t play. They never fight over anything other that has anything to do with the game.

  142. Yeah, Village People Gillies, and Boogaard and Brashear would be perfect examples of guys who make a lot of money, eat a lot of cap space, contribute nothing, and keep an actual hockey player off the roster.

  143. Doodie Machetto on

    Jim, we will have to agree to disagree then. I regularly visit hockeyfights.com, I make a point to watch a game (or at least see the highlights) between two teams that have had a lot of fights between them earlier in the season, i.e., Penguins-Islanders, Bruins-Canadiens (which is tonight BTW), because I know I’m in for entertainment.

    At the end of the day, all professional sports are about being entertained.

  144. Doodie Machetto on

    As to how to enforce a stage fight ban? Let the league fine coaches when they think there has been a staged fight like they are when there’s an instigator in the closing minutes of a game. See how many goons end up on the ice then when the coach’s wallet is at stake.

  145. Thanks Doodie….I never could remember sequence.

    Heard the Orpik consipracy theory….

    I loved Gabby’s comments…I blacked out for a few seconds and didn’t know where I was….dude, did you ever think to tell anybody that at the time that you lost it?

  146. charlie sheen on

    Happy Fat Tuesday boneheads. Manfried no need to ban hangovers, you dont get em, if you dont sober up. Just got my favorite mixologist (me) to whip up the days first hurricane, and what do I see on VS tonight? COLORADO-MINN!!!! Look at the schedule tonight, and look at the garbage on this channel. This is why the NHL has problems, not fighting. They have their own channel, and play 17 hours of the same highlights. Thank God i will be too drunk to remember what happens tonight. Enzo, you jammin to Buckwheat Zydeco today?

  147. Carp: Yes, those fights are obvious. But many are equally staged and not so obvious. I think banning those types of fights is splitting hairs.

    Just ban the fights outright.

    The other solution (which I know won’t happen) to get rid of goons is to go to 4 and 4 and reduce roster sizes by 4. There would be no room for goons in that case.

  148. Very True Mr. Sheen. I actually feel groggy from not touching the hooch last night.

  149. Mister Delaware on

    “The other solution (which I know won’t happen) to get rid of goons is to go to 4 and 4 and reduce roster sizes by 4. There would be no room for goons in that case.”

    Even the NHLPA is strong enough to kill that idea.

    Wouldn’t it be the GMs you’d have to target to make a change, not the coaches? Torts isn’t the one who signed Boogaard or made him a roster option.

  150. Mster Delaware: Totally agree the NHLPA is strong enough to kill that idea. Which is why if/when someone is killed/permanently maimed on the ice they will be as responsible as the owners/management.

    Their silence when the goon tactics occur is deafening. And shameful.

  151. Jim,

    I have played hockey since I was 8. I now have 3 kids. One is 5 and one is 3. My girl is 8mos, so she’s not watching the games yet.

    My 5yr old was at the Oilers Rangers matinee when they won 8-2 and there were a lot of fights. He was with my dad, so I can’t comment on it so much. All I know is that he talked about the game for weeks and weeks. (He is learning early that when the Rangers win a game 8-2 you dwell on that for a long long time!!)

    But the other day we watched the Flyers game where Boyle fought Shelley. He asked why players fight? I told him that sometimes a player commits an egregious foul or aggressive hit (I did not use the word “egregious”, btw) and players feel that the referee missed a call and need to take matters into their own hands. If one of their teammates gets hurt because some opposing player made an illegal hit or slash or crosscheck that the ref did not see, a player might stick up for his teammate to show solidarity (again, I did not say “solidarity.”)

    I also told him that sometimes the team itself is looking for an energy change because momentum means a lot in hockey. A big play by one team, especially if the other team’s guy gets hurt, could result in a team feeling defeated before the game is over. So as teamwork goes, guys are looking to pick up their team and change the game.

    About 3 minutes later he said, “The Rangers scored again? Is this because of that fight?”

    This is where it gets tricky. My son takes karate. He understands that you don’t hit, kick, or fight people just because. If you are defending yourself, it’s ok. If someone is harming you or your friends physically, you can stick up for them or yourself and defend. Does he try and hit his younger brother now and again? Yes. But there are lessons to be learned the whole time. And my wife and I immediately get involved anytime this happens.

    Do you think there are lessons to be learned from hockey? My kid is learning stuff from watching. From the goals to the assists to the hits and yes, to the fights, he is learning stuff that helps him develop as a kid in this world.

    In lieu of what Doodie said, do I think that Derek Boogard is a role model for my kid? No way. Do I think Brandon Dubinsky is? Maybe a much better choice because he has all around skils and grit. When he fought Richards, do I tell my son that it was the wrong move and he should have backed away? Hell no. Richards tried to steamroll Dubi and you know Richards took that shot while Dubi was falling and somewhat defenseless. When my son asked why Dubi fought Richards, I explained it to him.

    I don’t think my son is going out of his way to fight people as a result. If anything, he learned something about standing up for yourself, knowing you need to defend yourself against bullies, and that sometimes fights are inevitable in emotionally charged situations when one party loses control. Do I want him to not play hockey because of it? Unequivocally no. Do I want him to shy away if some bully is picking on him or a friend of his? Again, 100% no. He knows that fighting is an ultimate last resort if there are no other choices. But to pretend that fights don’t happen in the real world or “turn away, don’t look at that” would do more harm than good.

    The real story is that with 600 hockey players instead of the old 120 or 150 or whatever it was, there are more players in the NHL with less skill. Should goons who are 1-dimensional players be in the league? No, probably not. But with teams in Nashville, Phoenix, Columbus, 2 in Florida, etc. there are a lot more players who would not be in the game if there were only 16 or 20 teams. The league did this to themselves.

    So now you want them to compound their mistake by changing the age-old rules because the f-ed up and expanded and whittled down the talent and opened the door for goons? So they made one mistake and will now change the rules to try and avoid saying they made a mistake in expanding? I don’t think that works.

  152. You can’t buy Tiger’s Blood! You have to be born with it!

    Although, there’s a drug called the “charlie sheen”. It’s the closest thing to it. But, one night of that drug, and your face will melt, and your body will explode.

    Duh! Winning!

  153. Tiki Barber is coming out of retirement.

    The Patriots need a running back. He’s 36 years old; not sure how good he’ll be. A running back’s career isn’t all that long. We’ll see if goes to the Paytriots, uses the juice, and has his career revitalized. I know the type of classless guy Barber is, so I predict the Patriots is where he’ll end up.

  154. Doodie Machetto on

    Newman,

    that’s kind of what I was saying in response to Jim’s query about letting my hypothetical kid (I have none) fight in a youth league. It’s a complex emotional situation and it’s difficult for a child to comprehend all of the nuances. It’s not a black or white fighting is wrong or right.

  155. And This One Will Last A Lifetime on

    Is fighting a part of the game ?

    I used to think it was, then I started thinking it should be taken out, then I came back to keeping it a part of the game.

    There is a really good book titled “The Code”. I guarantee if you read the book, cover to cover, you will waiver and waffle at least two times back and forth as to whether fighting is/should be a part of the game. Very compelling views from all sides of the aisles.

    Carp, have you read the book?

  156. Manfried

    Usted es una Mujer?
    Yi Yi Yi. And all this time I was thinking your were un hombre.
    I appreciate your comment that you can write it ,but not understand it…that’s my problem too. I can read and speak some but no comprende nada. I have that same problem with all my language conditions. in my younger days I went with a girl in Chicago who was a French Canadian and she tried me with French..I studied French and read and speak it OK ( still many gaps in vocabulary, but spoken???? fuggedaboudid.

    While in the service I was assigned for a couple years, and I started picking up Spanish pretty good, when they transferred me to the old Dew line in Duluth.

    Then I lost it all. But keep working at it, because another language always is a help.

    Then I come down here to Florida, and a guy who lives down the street introduced himself to me, and
    asked me if I had been in the American Marine Corps. I told him yes, I had been and he chuckled, he said
    Well I was in the Corps too….the Afrika Korps. He was a German soldier who fought in the north Africa desert under Field Marshal >Irwin Rommel against Montgomery’s “Desert Rats” British 8th Army. He said that he was sent to Arizonatoa POW camp and that saved his life. He staed here after the war, opened up an engineering firm, got rich, (came over with Werner Von Braun’s NASA gang,and bought himself a P-51 Mustang fighter on the surplus market.
    Then he had to find a instructor to teach him how to fly it. But the guy said that he’d first have to handle an AT6 trainer. …which he did. He said that the first time he landed it solo, he had to make his approach speed
    at over 100 mph. He finally sold it to another enthusiast, cause he felt too old for that wild stuff any more. He helped me a lot with my German, but I still need total immersion in order to converse.

    I told him that if I’d had the money I’d have tried to get my hands on a Fiesler Storch, which is a two place hi wing courier plane which can land on a pool table..
    He said that I’d never find one…they were all gobbled
    up by enthusiasts in Europe and here. It was a fabulous aircraft. He’s still around and he still gets out but he’s really getting on in years. He fought all thru all the campaigns in the desert, and never found any of his family again except for one brother who had already been living here.

    Ah…I go on too much, but you just punched a button on me. Might wonder how I wound up in the DEW line
    in Minnesota, but that was due to my re enlisting in the Air Force for 4 years later on when I got married and needed financial help.

  157. Hey Charlie Sheen, you can always watch your Icelanders tonight if you like…..I started and am finishing my day at work today Enzo. If I drink I won’t make the game tomorrow.

  158. Jim, never happen, banning fighting or going 4-on-4.

    Thanks to whomever started this whole fighting discussion. I might have to give you a percentage of my $1.50 per comment. LOL.

  159. Fighting is not “ALLOWED” in nhl hockey. it is a trip to the penalty box, so it is not “allowed”

    it happens, and so does the punishment for it.

  160. hey does anyone know where i could get big east tix for tom real cheap. its for my uncle

  161. Boom Boom Bathgate on

    What the puck, I am reading the above and all of a sudden a G.D. noisy commerical pops up. I do not answer my phone anymore, because of all the commericials, called “Telemarketing calls.” Don’t want that crap here, either. Your doing or just invaders on my computer, nothing to do with the site I am at?

  162. Yo soy hombre!

    Tiki – you have GOT to be kidding me!? Out of retirement? It was so sweet when he trashed Eli, retired, Giants win Super Bowl, Barber divorce, etc..

  163. now newman, tell us really how you feel about fighting!

    long posts can give you an itchy eye!

    BAN LONG POSTS!

  164. Tiki Barbera! Bwaha! How can you divorce your wife for another chick *while she’s pregnant*! LOL!

    Only in the NFL. Maybe the NBA too. Actually, in the NBA, the “hot” thing is to knock up your girlfriend right before you’re drafted, then pay child support for the next eighteen years, or more.

    All NHL players do is bang each others wives behind each others backs, and get a DUI here and there. Hahaha!

  165. That was a really long post by Newman but a REALLY good post. On a slow news day that was a great post to read.

    I am coming to the age and relationship with my fiance where having children becomes a reality. That was really helpful. I am always scared of whether or not I can be a good parent so it always helps to hear what parents actually say and do and think about subjects that are bound to come up in my parenting.

    Thanks for opening up Newman.

  166. does anyone else has this sudden urge to hit Charlie Sheen in the face with a bag with dirty laundry? I think he abused his over-privileged privileges already!

    annoying at this point…

  167. I feel badly for Charlie Sheen. If I had to see Denise Richards and think about her as “the one that got away” I would be in far worse shape than he is.

  168. career? what career? he’s a HORRIBLE actor! HORRIBLE father/ husband and so on…I wouldn’t want his life even with all that money that he has.

  169. I can’t believe he got fired. If I was Fox (or whoever produces that show) I would just continue with the show – the ratings would never be higher – and I would merely make him think we are making the show but I would just film a reality show about him and air it instead.

    The title would still be appropriate.

  170. >>…I mean, when your player takes a huge hit, and you can’t do anything aboot it.

    What do you mean you can’t do anything about it? Firstly, a player shouldn’t have to fight after throwing a clean and legal hit. Secondly, if you don’t like your player getting nailed, seek their franchise player and punish him.

  171. Stranger Nation on

    Carp – I will settle for a 2 minute instigator penalty for starting this overblown, yet important, thread on fighting. That and a $mall donation…

    I was at game on Sunday and Richards did what we would want any Ranger to do. Check a player with the puck in the offensive zone. In watching the replay yesterday, it was a classic ‘Dubi holding on to puck too long’ possession and as he curled back into middle of ice with a man checking him, Richards came over to hit him. Dubi was bent over low and as a result the check was delivered ‘high’.

    What was illegal if you read the rule is Richards was ‘charging’ Dubi. He skated half way across the zone with a desire to hit the player. “Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A “charge” may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice”. These infractions are rarely called these days and much more dangerous given speed and size of players than fighting especially regarding concussions.

    Through out these games there are plenty of Boarding penalties that are ignored. “A boarding penalty shall be imposed on any player or goalkeeper who checks an opponent in such a manner that causes the opponent to be thrown violently in the boards.” Again I believe these are much more dangerous than fighting given the force at which players hit an immovable object and also are not called enough. They can get rid of the subjective ‘hit from behind’ if they called boarding more.

    Let’s face it, we have refs not policing the sport properly. The players are flying out there. Three years ago I sat in the seats between the penalty boxes across from the Rangers bench and the speed of skating and the force of hitting was absolutely incredible.

    I am the first to stand up to watch the brawl, but think the immediately retaliation for a clean hit is a problem. The bigger problem is the hit is usually not ‘clean’ per the rule book.

  172. Manfired, apparently they’re trying to get Rob Lowe to take over his role.

    He grew up with the Sheen family, so maybe he might not want to take it.

    Also, they’re interested in John Stamos.

    Stamkos is the man. Full House FTW! Winning!

  173. Stamos would be an epic replacement. He married a beautiful woman also.

    Lowe? He is another problematic guy right?

    Obviously you’re right and Stamkos should be the replacement. Hey, at least we wouldn’t have to face him on the ice anymore.

  174. Remember this one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OTtN2Vv500

    There was no instigator rule. Kaminsky crosschecked Leetch high. Next shift Graves rag-dolled him all over the ice, went to the box, sat for 5, came back. Graves would do again, if needed to, but there was no need. These days, 17 min, if he does it again- game misconduct.

    Eliminating the fights per se will not decrease head injuries, if that is the goal. Stage fights by goons are dumb, and should be banned from hockey. So should be the instigator rule.

  175. If WTF means “Why The Face” then WTF should mean “Free the Whales”

    Stamos is a moron. She is a stone cold fox.

  176. I don’t mind the west cost games. Game starts at 8:30 here & I’m home from work.
    I get to give the DVR a rest
    LGR
    And…..
    REFRESH, REFRESH, REFRESH !!!

  177. these late starts are going to kill me. i will probably DVR the games and get up early though it will be brutal.

    ‘Breaking Bad’ has been keeping me busy between ranger games. great show

  178. Arsenal got cheated like none other. Had Van Persie sent off because he kicked the ball at the goal in the middle of a play, having not heard the whistle for offsides, because the opposing crowd is so loud. Of course, Arsenal has a relationship with the Yankees. Their games are aired on Yes Network.

    If I were Van Persie, I would have stayed on the pitch, told the referee that my team isn’t going to be cheated because of your bias and/or idiocy. And continued playing. Or punched the ref in the face and thrown him down, and actually earn the red card.

  179. Im angry. Im angry that referees are allowed to get away with carcillo like this. It’s not fair. Games should be decided by talent and luck, not worthless, valueless referees.

  180. Doodie Machetto on

    I’m surprised at the Shakthar-Roma game. I don’t think much of Roma, but to be two-nil down to Shakthar Donetsk? Good for Shakhtar though. Nice to see a non-major European league side in the quarterfinals.

  181. Prospal has two goals, six assists in the last seven games.

    Why is everyone so down on him? He hasn’t been that bad, but lately everyone seems to treat him like the new Dreary.

    Maybe people need a new player to b*tch and moan aboot?

  182. Wow. Arsenal is done. What a sad world we live in, where referees take control of games and decide games that millions of fans have their hearts and souls invested in.

  183. Doodie – Roma is garbage and Donetsk is actually good.

    I don’t know why I feel so bad for Arsenal. I despise them. But given their history with Barca and always coming out on the short end of the stick, it’s sad to me that they got cheated again. I feel absolutely terrible.

  184. Doodie Machetto on

    Tiki, I don’t know what game you’re watching, but Barca was in control long before Van Persie’s red. It was only a matter of time.

  185. Doodie – It’s obvious you dont know what you’re talking about. It was 1-1 and 3-2 on aggregate in favor of Arsenal prior to the red card on Van Persie. Then a goal and a cheap penalty kick given for another goal.

  186. Orr Isnt that what the government calls it when they comes in and takes all your stock piled guns

  187. Doodie Machetto on

    Tiki, I’m talking about the flow of the game itself. Yes, the score was 1-1 and 3-2 on aggregate, but Barca was in COMPLETE control of the play on the field. Arsenal doesn’t have a shot, on target or otherwise, in the entire game! Barca was going to score one more, which at least would send it to extra time, and from there, it was only a matter of time before Arsenal was beaten.

  188. Barca can control the action all it wants, but they were down 3-2 on aggregate. They had to score. They had to push forward, and Arsenal could have ended Barca on a counter attack. Once Arsenal was down to 10 men, Barcelona had no fear of a counter attack and forces Arsenal to expend all their energy defending in their own end. There was no break, no time for rest, just continuous Barcelona attack. So again, your theory that it was “only a matter of time” is an EPIC FAIL. It’s just not that easy to score in soccer, especially against a full complemented team.

  189. Doodie Machetto on

    For the record, I don’t like either team, so I’m not being biased. Just calling it like I see it. Almunia is the only reason that game isn’t 6-1. And the awful communication on the Arsenal corner by Busquets, Abidal, and Maxwell is the only reason Arsenal has a goal.

  190. “Barca was going to score one more, which at least would send it to extra time, and from there, it was only a matter of time before Arsenal was beaten.”

    “Barcelona was going to score one more” Moronic.

    “It would have gone to extra time and it was only a matter of time” In extra time, there’s only 30 minutes. Barcelona wasn’t guaranteed to score in 30 minutes. It very easily could have gone to PKs, where anything can happen.

  191. Doodie Machetto on

    Tiki, stop. You’re just wrong. Arsenal wasn’t countering anything. Barca was in full attack from the start of the game and Arsenal did not register a single attempt at goal. Barca has too much talent not to score 2 goals when the opposing side is offering no opposition.

    I repeat: it was only a matter of time.

  192. Doodie – I like neither team also. I despise Arsenal. Im being objective. So Arsenal had a goal they didn’t deserve. That doesn’t matter. That’s a mistake by a player and good luck for Arsenal.. Arsenal was in control of the scoreline. And no team is GUARANTEED to score. As a fan of the Rangers, a team that often dominates games without scoring, a person would think you’d know that.

  193. Doodie Machetto on

    Dude, you have the absolute most tainted bias glasses in history. Whatever team you support, you just completely disconnect from reality when it comes to them.

  194. Doodie – You’re 100% wrong. That’s the bottom line.

    Arsenal was outmatched in the first half of the 1st leg of this duel. And then in the 2nd half, they counter attacked and scored 2 goals. So again, your theory that it was only a matter of time is an EPIC FAIL.

    Im done discussing this with you, as you don’t understand football. You know less about football than my left nut

    The game was unfairly decided by referees. Bottom line.

  195. Doodie – Nice try. I dont support Arsenal. I support Manchester United. I actually have great admiration for Barcelona.

    Nice try again. It’s even more difficult to score in football than it is in hockey. You cant guarantee goals, no matter the team.

    Im done discussing this with you. Stick to a sport you actually know, hockey. Thanks in advance.

  196. Doodie Machetto on

    Arsenal touched the ball just 41 times in Barca’s half in the first half. Barca had 310 touches in Arsenal’s.

    Van Persie being sent off meant nothing. He wasn’t getting the ball, and he certainly wasn’t causing Barca to hold back any of its attack.

  197. Doodie Machetto on

    Tiki, I know soccer more than I know hockey. It’s what I grew up with. I didn’t even watch hockey until after I was already playing travel soccer.

    Barca was going to score again. End of story.

  198. Im taking a breather from the blog for the rest of today. Stupidity always angers me. Have a great day guys and LGR!

    If this happened to Man U, there’d be holes in my walls, broken doors, and Id find out the name of that referee and Id take a “business” trip to whatever country he resides in.

    Love you Mama bear!

  199. That’s what I mean when I say that you can always find someone make a funny crack and it makes you laugh out loud…………..
    “A bag of dirty laundry indeed”

    I can’t even write it without chuckling again. That’s really funny.

  200. Doodie Machetto on

    Orr, that’s why you can’t use the post declaring a hat trick as the third post.

  201. Doodie Machetto on

    Orr, lead by example! don’t declare a hat trick until it’s actually been completed!

  202. Doodie Machetto on

    Damn, thats like my fifth hat trick today. I need to pay more attention at work. Or consolidate my posts.

  203. love Torts as coach with this group of players
    but i can’t help but question some of
    his strategies
    particularly against thrasher, devils and sabres
    we seem to get into the same type of game
    each time with those teams

    also
    one of the things that changed dramatically
    in the two wins was players moving more around the ice
    in all three zones but particularly
    in offensive zone
    whereas
    during the losing streak they spent
    all their time just trying to retrieve the puck
    along the boards and the just moving
    it to another player along the boards

    i don’t know if it was a matter of injuries or what
    but i thought that once Torts got the team on
    the Jam/Grind page
    that other elements were going to be
    implemented

    would hope that next season more movement
    and/or positional play come into the picture.
    you look at some of the teams we play — tb, thrashers…
    and an unconscious pass goes from the forward
    to a dman waiting at the blue line who gets a
    shot away as we’re tiring ourselves out chasing ’em.

  204. Nah folks, no hero stuff for me. You’ve got the wrong guy. Yes Tiki I have lived here on the Space Coast just across from the gantry that launches the shuttles. We watch them from our rear veranda just across the Indian River. We love it here.

    All I am is a guy who came up thru the depression and spent much of my early years just trying to get and hold onto a job. The result was numerous adventuresome incidents that covered a wide variety of occupations. Two of my scariest incidents came just trying to deliver citrus to NYC and Albany respectively. Hah.

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