Guest blogger: cwgatti (updated, part 2)


Dog days of summer. . . .

Draft day and July 1st always make for great blog banter. We all critique the NYR draft strategy. Ponder which useless, overpaid UFA will be signed by the NYR. We try to put the line combinations, and defensive pairings together. To resolve obvious roster flaws, we bury millions of dollars in Hartford, because it is so easy to burn other people’s millions. Some of the most vitriolic messages are posted this time of year by die-hard Ranger fans who miss their favorite sport.

Here we are again speculating the future of the world’s most dysfunctional tenants, be it the Knicks or in our case the Rangers. The passing of George Steinbrenner last week really put things into perspective for me, and it has been obvious to most of us for a very long time:

The biggest problem the Rangers have is James Dolan.

George Steinbrenner and James Dolan took two completely different tracks to becoming owners. George eagerly sought out investors, recruited a junior partner, and used some of his very own money to buy a floundering New York Yankee franchise. Dolan inherited the Rangers. George had a dream, a vision, and a plan to build the most successful sports franchise in the history of pro sports. Dolan, not so much.  George refused to accept complacency. Dolan took guitar lessons. George had a sign on his desk that read, “Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!” Dolan hired incompetents to lifetime jobs that could only be terminated by sexual harassment lawsuits. I could go on and on. . . . .

The saddest part of this story is that it will never change. The culture around this organization is so poor and so permanent, that unless the team is sold, we will be discussing the same summertime topics year after year. It is a culture that not even Mark Messier can change.  The Rangers have an owner that has mandatory attendance to his stupid little concerts, but holds no one’s feet to the fire regarding the sports teams.

It’s amazing the difference in philosophies, huh? When you earn something, and work hard to make it a success. George Steinbrenner’s legacy will be that of a champion. When you inherit a team, show no passion or interest in it, and sacrificed nothing to own it, you don’t seem to care so much.

Rest in peace Mr. Steinbrenner. All Yankee fans owe you thanks for your passion and commitment.


Afternoon update: Blogmama here all. I promised Carp I’d update posts if news breaks while he’s meeting Mr. T, and I guess this qualifies. As I’m sure you all know by now, Kovalchuk has decided to say goodbye to Hollywood and continue his ride on the Jersey side. Can’t wait to learn the terms of this deal.
I, for one, am glad the saga is over. And I thank CW for breaking the logjam. I think his guest post did it.

Update 2: If you’re interested in the second biggest news of the day. This from the Rangers:

New York, July 19, 2010: New York Rangers President and General Manager Glen Sather announced today that the Rangers have acquired defenseman Matt McCue from the Anaheim Ducks, in exchange for forward Tomas Zaborsky.

McCue, 22, split the 2009-10 season between the Manitoba Moose of the American Hockey League (AHL) and the Bakersfield Condors of the ECHL. He began the campaign with Manitoba, registering one goal and 24 penalty minutes in 10 games. McCue made his professional debut with the Moose on October 3. He notched his first professional point with a goal on November 2 vs. Norfolk, tallying Manitoba?s only goal in a 3-1 defeat. McCue made his ECHL debut with Bakersfield on January 13 at Ontario following his assignment on January 7, and recorded two assists and 68 penalty minutes in 19 contests with the Condors. He registered an assist in back-to-back contests on March 20 vs. Victoria and March 26 at Utah. His assist on March 20 was his first professional assist.

Prior to turning professional, the 6-5, 220-pounder skated in 247 games with the Spokane Chiefs, Chilliwack Bruins, Brandon Wheat Kings and Medicine Hat Tigers of the Western Hockey League (WHL), registering 15 goals and 48 assists for 63 points, along with 625 penalty minutes. McCue established career-highs in goals (six), assists (19), points (25) and penalty minutes (195) in 2008-09 with Brandon and Medicine Hat. He also recorded two goals and two assists for four points, along with 38 penalty minutes in 20 career WHL playoff contests with Chilliwack, Brandon and Medicine Hat.

The Cochrane, Alberta native was originally signed by Anaheim as a free agent on December 30, 2008.

Zaborsky skated in 41 games this season with Assat Pori of the Finnish Elite League, registering nine goals and 17 assists for 26 points, along with 67 penalty minutes. He was originally selected as the Rangers? fifth round choice, 137th overall, in the 2006 NHL Entry Draft.

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  1. I’m disappointed in wicky. I was fully expecting him to annoint Brendan Witt or Garnet Exelby – or more realistically, someone like Derian Hatcher – as the Greatest Player in NHL History ahead of Gretzky, but then he plumps for Messier.

  2. Good post, cwgatti. Not the most optimistic, but true. I hope, for all Yankee fans sake, that George’s sons are not planning to sell the franchise. Because I’m sure Dolans will be the first in line to buy it.

  3. Nice post. If there is a sign in Dolan’s office it must read:

    There are three types of people in this world:

    Those who make things happen.

    Those who watch things happen.

    Those who wonder what happened.

    Too bad Dolan is not with the first group

  4. Gift of GAB-orik (Any newbies to gang up on??) on

    If this team, with this owner, were anywhere else in the country with the exception of Canada… this franchise would be a joke. Because it’s MSG, because of the history of the building, and the fact that it’s in NY, it puts butts in seats.

    The team makes money, even though realistically the team has sucked for the better part of 20 years, hell maybe longer. A few good seasons here and there, but certainly a dynasty we are not.

    Problem #1- Owner

    Problem #2- GM

    they may be interchangeable… there is no way this GM should still have a job after the putrid 10 years he’s put behind him, and the owner should take his head out of his posterior, and at least PRETEND to give a crap about the team.

  5. God forbid, there is a snowball’s chance in hell that Dolan buys the Yankees from the Steinbrenners!! That would be the last we’ll see, as Yankee fans, not just the World Series, but the playoffs!! For Dolan to contend that Glen Sather is THE MAN to run his hockey franchise AND that there is a chance that Isaah Thomas could come back and run the Knicks clearly shows that he has absolutely no grasp at how a successful, championship sports franchise is managed!!! So, even the thought of him purchasing the Yankees, makes my skin crawl

  6. Hockeyman Rangers on

    Good Post CW.
    I think season ticket fans should start taking signs into MSG with messages like Chopper has posted.
    Or even something like this.
    I can’t see NY Rangers fans not paying for tickets and not going to games but that might be the only way you would get Dolans attention. Ranger fans are way to passionate about them to not go to games. How many more years will fans put up with it before they really really decide this team will be nothing with current owners and manager????? There someone can use that question for the next post.

  7. CW

    Beautifully done my friend, your insight is exceeded only by your factual expertise and your prosaic command. I salute you on your initial posting. Seldom has such a delivery been attempted by the professional sports writers of the local newspapers. Many of them are grunting in awe at this very moment..providing that they had the wit to avail themselves of this maiden submission.. ( hope that doesn’t come across as too sexual).

    I look forward to the rest of this week with eagerness.

  8. Hockeyman Rangers on

    Look what happend in Chicago, the son took over the Blackhawks and got themselves a cup. I don’t know details about the Dad but I heard he was a stink pot owner as well.

  9. Joekuh - I made it outta Blog Training Camp! on

    Good one gatti. Dolan only sees MSG as a money-making machine. The Boss saw his team as “championship or bust”. He was as much a fan as any other Yankee fan. He will be missed.

  10. Good post cw. You hit the nail on the head.

    Sadly there are more Dolans in the sports world than there are Steinbrenners. I suppose to most owners, the sports franchise is an ornament, an accessory for their wealthy lifestyles. Granted these are highly competetive and A type personalities, but few if any depend on the team for their income, let alone their fortunes. Team ownership is a country club membership, a super-elite club that the owner is willing to spend whatever (ie – lose money; see Wang, Charles) it takes to belong (ie – ego trip). Maybe that’s what explains the lack of a drive to succeed. Membership in the club is all that matters. Sports success is nice, but not necessary.

  11. Gatti, nice try but I disagree. Dolan does care. He just does not have the drive to win and build a winner.

  12. Ronster,
    “Gatti, nice try but I disagree. Dolan does care. He just does not have the drive to win and build a winner.”

    Ummmmmmm. . . . . isn’t that the definition of not caring?

  13. CGB- I like your country club membership comparison. There is something to say about it.

  14. I could also point to other franchises that have similar problems. The Cleveland Browns for one. That is why I am for league contraction. Even tho Dolan will always be around in a contracted league, there are other owners who have no business owning teams.

  15. The Browns, and more generally football, are a completely different animal. The NFL and it’s teams mint money for reasons we all know. Stadiums are (for the most part) sold out, not to mention the new ones that are partially subsidized by public funds. And football owners have rockstar visbility if they want it. On the scale of ownership ego trips, the football owner is king of the hill.

    Winning or losing in football probably has the least effect on ownership. Go ask Al Davis how bruised his ego is that the Raiders have sucked for so long. Want to change football owners? A death in the family is usually the shortest route.

  16. Tank The Season on

    Great post. The Rangers will forever be the Ice Knicks with Dolan around.

    Kovalchuk to sign in LA today per multiple reports.

  17. Great post! Also, Dolan is the complete opposite of Mr. Steinbrenner, but you know who isn’t? That guy from the other side of the river.

  18. Good post CW. Unfortunately Dolan only looks on the balance sheet to measure success instead of checking the trophy cabinet.

  19. I think Steinbrenner and Dolan were more alike than you say. Before the salary cap, the Dolan’s ran the Rangers just like Steinbrenner ran the Yankees: changing/buying players, management, and coaching constantly in an endless pursuit of winning. After the installation of a cap, the Rangers have not responded well. But they also live in a sandbox that is completely different from the one in which the Yankees play. The Yankees have great management in Brian Cashman and can still constantly buy championships (even with their recent “restraint” they still spend much more money than any other franchise in baseball). The Yankees buy veterans, they buy prospects, they buy high upside guys, they buy washed up guys. They tend to buy less washed up guys than other teams do, but it also doesn’t hurt them as much when they do get a lemming because they can just buy another replacement for whomever does not pan out. Or they can trade from their ridiculous cache of prospects that they’ve stockpiled because they can spend more money to sign players to ridiculous bonuses and build bigger, better foreign academies.

  20. Leethhalloffame on

    On Dolan’s desk – pictures of Sather & Isiah Thomas in a heart shaped frame.

  21. Tank The Season on

    For Oleo on the last post:

    The Rangers can’t put themselves in a position where the additional salary they take on now would not leave them with enough cap space to match an offer sheet to Staal. Say they went out and got a Brad Richards now without giving up salary, and someone offers Staal a $4M+ per year offer sheet, we’d lose Staal.

    To get a new player of any significance we have to wait until Staal is signed or Redden is sent down.

  22. “To resolve obvious roster flaws, we bury millions of dollars in Hartford, because it is so easy to burn other people’s millions”
    That is really unfair to say if you’re not going to hold the Yankees accountable for the same thing. The Yankees burn many more “other people’s millions.” They, too, bury their mistakes and try to buy new solutions. Do they a pass because they’ve been able to win? Because there’s no spending cap holding them responsible for their actions?

  23. There is no team in the NHL that does not or has not had contract problems with signed players. Better get used to it and quit moaning. Comments like this always come up after the fact and are easy prey for second guessers.
    Tallon lost his job because of cap problems.

  24. Very soon, we all get to see a small slice of Dolan’s perspective on winning vs. money. Let’s see where Redden parks his gear on opening day, Hartford or 34th Street.

    Maybe I’m too pessimistic (40 yr ranger addiction will do that to you) but I think the primary reason they didn’t go after Kovalchuk is because Dolan is not willing to bury Redden and pay a minor leaguer that kind of money. A Brashear mistake is one thing, a small write-off perhaps. But Redden at $6.5 mil per yr for the next four, that’s another.

  25. In browsing thru all of the posts lately a sudden thought occurred to me ( and these don’t come very often)..

    Looking at all the inside info that you folks provide ( and some of it is remarkable), it almost looks as though the Hartford
    wolf Pack will become the most highly paid AHL team in history ( not necessarily to be confused with the most talented), and one wonders if this will have a significant
    effect on the tickety p[rices this coming season. you know, even though there is a hard core element to the Pack’s
    attemndants, this club has long been spoiled the the
    long gone, but not forgotten Whalers. They in fact had a remarkable following as an NHL team, tho far below what is considered the minimum attendance for an NHL franchise,
    but from my casual observation of their figs, the Pack is ocnsiderably below the Whalers average game attendance figures. One must recall that they, like the Winnipeg Jets and Oilers etc. were the dregs of what used to be the old WHA.

    And the old Birmingham Bulls became the cornerstone of the Phil Flyers and their championship runs.

  26. for the millionth time an offer sheet of over 4.5 mil for Staal is not happening…no team would give up their 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders for him.

    how many times does Carp have to tell you then offer sheets for that much money don’t happen in the NHL????

  27. Darren,
    Winning is far more important to the gate in Yankee Stadium. Live in the basement for a while and see attendance go from 50K to 20K. Not to mention the value of the franchise and the ratings on the YES network. That’s as much a reason to bury Igawa as any. One could argue it’s an investment.

  28. Gift of GAB-orik (Any newbies to gang up on??) on

    Dolan spends the money… that much i’ll say. He paid the luxury tax on the Knicks for YEARS trying to get something out of them. He’s not shy about spending, as we’ve seen through Sather. The GM’s have blank checks with which to do what they please.

    The problem is in talent assessment. The people he hires to fill these positions collectively cannot get the job done. Sather has lost all tough on how to assemble a hockey team, and put a winning product on the ice. Teams like Detroit, and New Jersey have had success for multiple years. Not always cups, but in the playoffs more often than not. Detroit has arguably been the best NHL team of the past decade. (wash and pitt only been real good for the past 3)

    To touch on the Yankees… yes The Boss did throw money around like a drunken sailor… but they win. and win often. As a whole, the Yankees have won 25% of all World Series played. They average a World series 1 out of every 4 years!! so HELL YES their sins are forgiven alot quicker than mistakes of others.

    If the Rangers went on to win 2 cups in the next 5 years, we’d have short memories too.


  29. @GCBlue

    There might be other reasons for not burying Redden in Hartford. Maybe the organization can’t actually afford to pay that kind of money on top of a full NHL cap worth of salary. I doubt that’s the case, but it could be. None of us know the Rangers’ budget situation.

    Redden might also represent the Rangers’ best chance to win now. He’s still a serviceable third pairing guy in the league. Prospects like Gilroy and the aforementioned guys might not be up to his level of play yet and might not be able to beat him out in a level competition for a roster spot.

    I hope Redden is sent down to Hartford. It would open a spot for someone to develop and free up cap space to sign a more meaningful contributor. And I wish it had been done sooner so that we might have been able to keep guys like Potter, Heikkinen, and Sanguinetti. But, if he’s not sent down right away, we can’t say definitively that it’s because Dolan is trying to pad profits.

  30. Doodie Machetto on

    ole, the compensation for 4.5 would only be a first and a third. Any more than that is the 1-2-3.

    The main reason a team won’t sign him to such a large offer sheet is because he isn’t worth that much money. Forget the picks. He just isn’t a 4.5 player. He’s not even a 4 million player anywhere but in our lousy salary structure.

  31. Doodie Machetto on

    “And I wish it had been done sooner so that we might have been able to keep guys like Potter, Heikkinen, and Sanguinetti.”

    Redden not going to Hartford had nothing to do with the organization jumping ship on those guys. Sanguinetti was dealt because they felt he was a bust, Heikkinen just went for more money overseas, and the team clearly doesn’t give a Carcillo about Potter as anything more than a 7th defenseman, and he disagrees with that valuation.

  32. @GCBlue,
    It doesn’t matter if winning is important to the Gate revenue and Yes ratings. The fact is, they operate in a different world than the Rangers do. Even if the Yankees don’t make the playoffs and don’t win a world series, they will still have more money and less restrictions than any NHL team. They will still be able to dominate the spending of their sport. No other baseball team is close. The Yankees spend 25% more than the next closest team the Red Sox on salary alone. One might even argue that the Yankees’ ability to drive up player contracts has hurt other teams in ways we can’t even quantify. So while the Yankees get richer, the rest of MLB gets poorer.

  33. Darren
    I didn’t mean that is was a profit thing, although your point is well taken. I’m saying it may be more of a visceral reaction. Call it a “refusal to accept they made such a big mistake” thing.

  34. Tank The Season on

    Hjalmarsson, a completely unproven defenseman whom nobody knew about prior to this year when he was good in the playoffs got a $3.5M per year offer sheet from San Jose. The Blackhawks matched.

    And you say there is NO possibility Staal could get an offer sheet?

  35. ThisYearsModel on

    Dolan’s flaw is talent assessment and an unnatural loyalty to employees. Everone that worked for the Boss knew that he would hild them accountable…..perform or you are out. Sather knows that he does not have to work hard…….he is GM for as long as he wants to be regardless of results. Overpaying for free agents is the easy way out. We see the results.

  36. Blueshirt in Paris on

    I tried to post a link but it is ‘awaiting moderation’

    Head over to Fear the Fin regarding talk of the Sharks targeting Staal with an offer sheet. Also a pretty good comparison on his stats compared to Rob Blake…

    ‘Last season Staal was, to put it lightly, a motherxxxxxx shutdown machine. In all honesty, this guy could probably break down Brad Pitt’s game at a bar and walk out of the establishment with Angelina Jolie on his arm without anyone thinking twice about it.’

  37. Doodie Machetto on

    Tank, the 3.5 million sheet on Hjarlmarsson was a calculated move by San Jose to weaken Chicago. Also, don’t know if you watched the playoffs, but he seemed pretty proven to me, much more so than Marc “pokecheck” Staal.

  38. Doodie Machetto on

    “‘Last season Staal was, to put it lightly, a motherxxxxxx shutdown machine. In all honesty, this guy could probably break down Brad Pitt’s game at a bar and walk out of the establishment with Angelina Jolie on his arm without anyone thinking twice about it.’”

    That tells me they haven’t seen much of Staal.

  39. CW, congrats on a well written and provocative article.

    I think one of Mr. Steinbrenner’s most important qualities for success was accountability. That lacking in the Ranger organization trickles down to the player level every year.

  40. CW,

    great post but don’t forget, Dolan inherited the Garden, Rangers, Knicks etc from his old man because his old man didn’t want him anywhere near the big money maker for the family, Cablevision. He along with the board were so worried that he’d screw up Cablevision that he “gave” him the Garden and it’s teams and properties to keep him away from Cablevision and out of his hair.

  41. Doodie Machetto on

    CW, while an attack on Dolan is hardly groundbreaking, I admit that the comparison to Steinbrenner is an interesting and fair given the shared local market.

  42. Darren,

    While somewhat true, Steinbrenner would have never held onto guys like Sather or Thomas to run his teams if they didn’t win. Steinbrenner had guys who won and still fired them much less have had run teams into the ground for 10 and 6 years respectively.

  43. Blueshirt in Paris on

    Although I agree it didn’t look like Staal had a stellar year it might be interesting to note that his Qualcomp was the highest out EVERY defender in the league that played more then 50 games (2nd highest for defenders that played over 15 games).

    Kind of a tough thing to dump on a 23yr old and expect him to excel.

  44. old harvey jersey on

    Nice post cw.

    I think Steinbrenner recognized the legacy and importance of what he held in owning the team. Fans are passionate about their teams, just look at all of us. They invest time and good money to see them, talk about them and follow them in every way. Steinbrenner created a culture where everyone in the organization recognized this responsibility. This does not exist with the Rangers. This does not mean signing autographs after games it means giving your best each game. Dont BS the fans by mailing it in every other game. Some have said on these boards that if the Rangers bury a guy like Redden in Hartford it sets a bad precedent for future UFAs. It sets a fantastic precedent; if you are worried that if you play below your abilities you will be sent to the minors good, we dont want you. As fans we hitch ourselves emotionally to a team and when the team does not understand that responsibility, they should be held accountable.

  45. @Doodie,
    If Redden had not been on the roster, those guys might have been given more playing time. How do you know “Heikkinen just went for more money overseas,” that the organization only projected Potter to a seventh defenseman (or that they would have evaluated him as such had he had more of an opportunity to make an impression). The team might have even evaluated Sanguinetti differently if he’d been given the chance to play NHL hockey like Gilroy and MDZ were.
    I think Heikkinen left because he wasn’t given a chance to play in the NHL while less polished prospects, MDZ and Gilroy, leap-frogged him. Think about what a slap in the face that would be for a fairly polished guy promised a shot after playing against men and strong competition in the Finnish SM-liiga for six seasons.

  46. $4.63m is the threshold for the 1,2,3 picks being mentioned.

    Their blog also mentions that NYR would match anything under $6m per in the blink of an eye

  47. the RFA compensation for 4.5 mil or over is 1st, 2nd and 3rd. for 3.5 to 4.5 it is 1st and 3rd.

    regardless the Rangers can go 10% over the cap this summer so that gives the Rangers about 9 mil of wiggle room, and that doesnt even factor into the idea that they could just place Redden on waivers.

    the Rangers plenty of cap room right now, they dont need to worry about Staal…

  48. The other thing with this San Jose cr*p is there is no mention of “have you seen the guy play…?” its all based on stats and salaries and quality of opposition which look good on paper but lets not forget Staal plays with possibly the best goaltender in the league behind him. So with Nittymaki (isnt that a type of sushi?) behind him those stats will de distinctly less impressive.

    I’m not even sure SJ have enough cap space, anyway, they have to get Setogouchi signed and a few more role players which combined is likely to take up $4-5m of cap space – only way they sign Staal is if they trade Ryan Clowe, Setogouchi or Vlasic first – and i cant see any of them being let go to sign Staal.

  49. Does anyone know if there needs to be a minimum # of yrs for those compensation picks? For example, could the offer sheet be for just one year?

  50. Blueshirt in Paris on

    Maybe I am reading the wrong CBA but it clearly states the following. Did something change recently?

    $600,000 – below = no compensation
    $660,000-$1mil = 3rd round
    $1mil-$2mil = 2nd
    $2mil-$3mil = 1st and 3rd
    $3mil-$4mil = 1st, 2nd, 3rd
    $4mil-$5mil = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd
    5mil-over – 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st

  51. the only way Staal leaves is if the Rangers allow him too and he will most likely be the final signing a week or so before training camp starts.

    of course some of you will freak out that he isnt here and panic but he and the Rangers both know he is returning…

  52. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, my evaluations of each player, individually:

    1) Potter: this one is the easiest to determine. There were multiple times last season when a defenseman was called up from Hartford to play in the NHL. If they thought that they had an actual player in Potter, he would have been the first or second guy up. He was third behind Heikkinen and Sanguinetti. Fact is, they didn’t think much of him. They had seen what he had to offer in a decent stretch of games two seasons ago and decided to give 2 other guys from Hartford a go ahead of him last season as a result. Late in the season when it was becoming clear that Gilroy was a little too green, they traded for Erikkson instead of calling up Potter. They just didn’t value Potter highly at all.

    2) Heikkinen had 7 games in the NHL last season, but when he went back down, they didn’t bring him back up, instead opting for Sanguinetti. I’m not sure the Rangers thought too highly of him either. Later in the season they made the Erikkson deal isntead of giving Heikkinen another chance. Sure, not playing probably had something to do with him leaving (I’m sure no small part being that he gets paid so much less in Hartford), but there were reasons beyond Redden that he didn’t play. Fact is, Redden is and was better than Gilroy, especially down the stretch when Gilroy found himself out of the lineup. The team still liked Gilroy better than Heikkinen though.

    3) There have been a ton of signs that the team did not think highly of Sanguinetti. I’m not going to go through the full list, but briefly: drafting MDZ, R&R’s ridiculous contracts, being passed over MULTIPLE times by other prospects for callups, etc. Lastly, it’s not like Sanguinetti said “screw you guys, I’m playing elsewhere!” The team dealt him because they though another 2nd rounder was more valuable.

  53. Good morning all! CW, great post out of the gate to start the week.

    So, did I miss anything since Thursday or are we still on the same topics? :)

  54. UKRanger

    which means unless a team offers him $6,183,925 or more, he will be back..

    but then again no team is giving up that amount of money and that compensation for him so that isnt even realistic

  55. Doodie Machetto on

    Figure Staal signs for about 4.25 million. At 7.5 million and 11.5 million, we will have the most expensive 2nd and 3rd defensive pairs in the league.

    Now we just have to get a first pair.

  56. @Doodie,

    Staal is a top pairing defenseman in the NHL. $4.5 million for him is a bargain.

  57. ThisYearsModel on

    Kovy resigns with NJ. This is going to be a very long season. All clubs except the Rangers have improved themselves.

  58. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, you’re on drugs if you think he’s a top defenseman. He’s a top tier 2nd pairing guy.

  59. Doodie Machetto

    Staal is a shutdown defenseman widely regarded as one of the best in the game defensively. more hits does not make you a better defenseman…

  60. cwgatti

    I thought you were going to post about Brad Richards! I’m disappointed!

    I kid I kid…good post, dude!

  61. The Post has reported it half hour ago. Devils were in cap hell before that deal. I’m very surprised at Lou. He is trying to suck one more SC out of Marty. He gave Volchenkov much longer deal than he should’ve. He brought back Arnott. My guess, he is hoping that new CBA will wipe out all these long term contract. He may be wrong. And I, too, don’t think they are winning the SC.

  62. Can’t wait to see the details of Kovi’s signing. Lou is a smart businessman but will this be an albatross of a contract in a few short years?

  63. TheREALMikeyNJ on

    Glad the DEvils signed him
    Now when MArty breaks down from age, and Parise needs to be resigned and they cant fit him in, the debbies will be screwed

    Add to this there picks in upcoming drafts have been traded away, there prospects in the minors aren’t that great, looks like a great future for the devils (From a rangers fan perspective)

  64. Doodie Machetto on

    oleosmurf, actually stopping top players makes you a shutdown defenseman. Just a look at some of the top players he should be shutting down and how they fared:

    Stamkos 2g, 3a

    Kovalchuk, 2g, 3a

    Iginla 1g in one game

    Chicago: all of the big names on the scoresheet in one game.

    Marleau: 1g, 2a (one game)

    Heatley: 1g, 1a (one game)

    Semin: 1g, 2a (three games)

    Backstrom: 3g, 4a

    Ovechkin: 3g, 1a

    Crosby: 8g, 5a

    Who exactly is he shutting down?

  65. funny how winning can change everything.
    everyone loves and respects Steinbrenner now
    that the yankees have been on top for a number of years
    but if his ticker would have gone kaput several years
    before that
    he’d have been ripped.

    well, at least we don’t have to worry about that problem with dolan. doesn’t care about winning and too stupid to do the right thing……such as sell the team to someone who does.

    ah, nepotism. friend to the privileged few.

  66. @Doodie,
    Great job taking those totals out of context. How did those players fare in other games? Did they score those points when Staal was on the ice? Were they at even strength? If you’re going to try to use stats, please do so even handedly.

  67. Gift of GAB-orik (Any newbies to gang up on??) on

    Kovy back in Joizee…. i honestly didn’t think that would happen.

  68. dchesnokov

    Kovalchuk’s mother tells Pavel Lysenkov of Sovetsky Sport that Kovalchuk’s deal with #NJD is for 17 years.

    WOW. Talk about a Rick DiPietro type of contract.


  69. Leethhalloffame on

    Wish it would have been LA that signed Kovi to get him away from Devs and our division. Another scorer for “Shut-Down” Staal to stop for the next 10 years.

  70. Hmm. If true, a 17 year contract would be a smart move by the Devils. A contract that long would probably be subject to league review, but there’s nothing in the CBA prohibiting it as contracts to Pronger, Hossa, etc. have shown.

  71. All clubs except the Rangers have improved themselves.


    It’s gonna be a long slog. Actually, there is a club in addition to the Rangers that haven’t improved themselves. That would be the Chicago Blackhawks. They’ve done nothing but shed quality players. Although they do have that nice, shiny silver chalice also known as the Stanley Cup.

  72. >>Now when MArty breaks down from age, and Parise needs to be resigned and
    >>they cant fit him in, the debbies will be screwed

    Yeah, I’m sure Lou Lamoriello doesn’t know what he’s doing. He really had not thought things through before pulling the trigger.

  73. Kovalchook is an idiot. The Devs are playoff chokers, and Marty isn’t getting any younger.

    If he really signed a longterm deal that will go past Brodiva’s retirement, then he’s screwed.

    Like CC said, they’re not winning the Cup! He made a terrible decision.

    The Kings had everything he needs to potentially win multiple Cups, and he passed it over for extra cash. What a dope.

  74. Tank The Season on

    I just hope that the Kovalchuk signing doesn’t mean that MSG adopt a pipedream that they are stealing Parise via an offer sheet next summer. Lou is the all-seeing.

    Incoming Frolov for too much money/term. Sigh.

  75. Blueshirt in Paris on


    Goals against while on the ice / 60 = 1.87

    Goals against while off the ice /60 = 2.56

    This should help remove the Lundquist factor.

  76. Lou Lamoriello is one of the best GMs in all of sports.

    i have no doubt that he knows EXACTLY what he doing and has already planned on fitting Parise in as well…

  77. its probably a crazy amount of years, front loaded so when hes tired of the devils he can go on over to the KHL and make more money in the KHL then the later years of his NHL contract

  78. ThisYearsModel on

    Slats has been out-GM’ed by Lamoriello again. The devils will win the cup again before the Rangers. There is no replacement for talent. The Devils have a lot more.

  79. There’s no way Lou would do anything to jeopardize a contract with Parise. They wouldn’t choose this greedy Russian bouchebag over the guy who will officially be the face of the oranization when Martini is gone.

    Elmer Fudd always has a plan. Yosemite Slats on the other hand, has no fuggin idea what he’s doing.

  80. While I agree that Lou Lam is one of the best GM’s in sports and has done a great job over there, I cannot imagine he was excited about putting that kind of money in front of IK for the simple reason that he has never done that for anyone before. I think there is tremendous pressure fronm ownership for the Devils to have star quality beyond Brodeur, for them to compete with the Rangers in this market and for them to sustain how good they’ve been at the very least. People say the Rangers fans won’t tolerate a rebuild but if the Devils had to go through a rebuilding period they would be non-existent.

  81. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, I had this big response posted and it got shut down. The jist is, the numbers are fair.

    1) PP or ES, it’s his job to stop those players.
    2) Those guys would have rarely seen the ice without him on it, and it’s not like those were the only times he scored
    3) To balance, I didn’t count any secondary scoring players that he would have covered had he missed the top guys, and in addition to the top guys, since he sees more ice than they do (guys like Malkin).

    I did the averages for players that he saw more than once to compare: Crosby has a record breaking season if he scores against every team against that pace, Ovechkin scores more goals (but significant less assists), Backstrom nearly doubles his goals and goes up in assists, Stamkos goes down slightly in goals but goes up in assists by more, and Kovalchuk goes down in goals, but stays even in assists.

    Point is, the top guys, on average, did as well or better against the Rangers than they did against the rest of the league. Only Kovalchuk did significantly worse. The point is, if he were some great shutdown defenseman, top guys would struggle. All he does it make it slightly more difficult. And don’t forget: He’s got Lundqvist between the pipes, who erases a lot of mistakes a lesser goaltender wouldn’t.

    He’s a top 2nd pair guy. Nothing more. Shut down defensemen make opposing players change their game to deal with the defenseman. Staal just reacts to the other guy’s game. He’s excellent for what he does, but nobody fears playing against him. He positions himself well and does small things to break up plays. But he will never be a top shut-down guy unless he can add some snarl to his game and make guys think twice about taking him on.

    Alternatively, if he added any possessive skill with the puck to keep it away from the opposition on the ice, that would work to help keep his opponents off the score sheet as well.

  82. hopefully this signing doesn’t make the Rangers try to compete and waste money and years on Frolov.

    this should further prove the need for rebuilding…

  83. Rod Gilbert II on

    Guys, I’ve got some breaking news here. Kovalchuk is going to sign with … … …

    The New Jersey Devils! You’re welcome.

  84. Doodie,

    So I see you’re cherry picking stats that you think show your point and ignoring all others. Your stats don’t even reflect if Staal was on the ice. And even then you’re dismissing stats and just spouting your thoughts on Staal’s playing style without providing evidence. A top defenseman has to have “snarl to his game” eh? Lidstrom, Gonchar, et al must be 2nd rate guys. All that preventing opponents from scoring without snarling has left opponents so confident against them.

  85. Tank The Season on

    Vanderbeek probably wanted Kovalchuk to stay so they could put fannies in the seats in Newark. Good luck with that one but a great signing for the Devs.

    Kovalchuk was not what we need. We need a playmaker who can help anyone not named Gaborik to actually score a goal.

    I don’t think we will be getting Brad Richards unless Dallas’ new owners want him gone now rather than at the deadline.

  86. Tank, Kovalchook is a playmaker, as well as a goal scorer.

    We could have had two 40-50 goal scorers!!

    Hopefully Slats just sleeps until October. No changes other than Dredden to Hartford, and maybe even Blowzy to anywhere!

  87. Now that teams are going to be making moves again, I hope the Rangers make an offer to Chicago for Sharpe. No way they can keep him after signing Kane, Toews and Keith.

  88. please rangers i ask you dont chase any of these ufa and overpay. tell frolov to take a hike and same to any others.

    with kovy gone live with what u have now.

    i was hoping we wouldnt have to see him 6 times.

  89. Doodie Machetto on

    “A top defenseman has to have “snarl to his game” eh?”

    No, I said a SHUT DOWN defenseman needs to have snarl OR puck possession skills. Lidstrom is a master of possession, and Gonchar isn’t a shut-down defenseman.

    You want to look up which goals Staal was on the ice for, be my guest. Chances are, for almost all of the points for the players I listed, he was on the ice (or in the box) because it’s his job to be on the ice. However, he was on the ice for a lot of other goals that weren’t scored by the top guys too. It’s worse that the lesser guys scored agaisnt your prized shut-down defenseman than the stars, so if you want to be totally fair, make sure to count every single player in the league. Ed Jovanovski and Vernon Fiddler (sh) both scoring while he was on the ice is more embarassing to me than Crosby have a goal and an assist in a game.

  90. Doodie- Staal turned 23 in January.

    I’d love to see the terms of Kavalchuk’s deal before judging it. But if it is for 17 years- oh, my! Let me ask everyone- how would you guys react if Sather signed him for 17 years?

  91. Mister Delaware on

    “Let me ask everyone- how would you guys react if Sather signed him for 17 years?”


  92. Doodie,
    Staal was on the ice for a lot of goals. That happens to NHL defensemen who play a great amount of minutes. As time goals up, goals go up. It’s a simple situation. Congrats on reiterating that. Goals never decrease with time. I can draw the chart if you’d like.
    The question is not whether goals were scored when Staal was on the ice. The question is whether he decreases the amount of scoring against the Rangers by opponents when he is playing. And all of the stats show that he faces amongst the toughest competition in the league and decreases scoring significantly. That means he is a shut down defenseman. Whether or not he meets your criteria as a goon matters little to me.

  93. I would be ecstatic if Sather had signed Kovalchuk for 17 years. He is an elite scorer and his contract would have had a reasonable cap hit. He will make the Devils a better team for a long time and then he will disappear if he’s not productive.

  94. Can’t judge the 17 year term unless you know the annual cap hit, when most of the money will be paid allowing him to walk away (ie retire to the KHL if it’s still around, is there a NMC etc.

  95. Doodie Machetto on

    ” And all of the stats show that he faces amongst the toughest competition in the league and decreases scoring significantly. ”

    Show me one. One stat that reflects this. And not just against one player. Show me against a few players, the “toughest competition in the league”. Show me the significant decrease in scoring. You said it yourself that “all of the stats” bear this out. Show me one. I’ve shown you one that goes in the other direction. Show me ONE of these many stats you describe that are in his favor.

    I also never said a guy has to be a goon to be a shut-down defenseman. A solid puck-possession game is equally effective. He has neither.

    And yes, Staal is 23, but he has shown me no hint of an intention to develop either some snarl or an ability to play the puck. Without either, he will never be anything more than just a top end 2nd pairing guy.

  96. remember kovy signed this contract before 35 so for say he retired that contract would be voided.

    a cap hit 0f 5.79 mil for kovy is not bad.

    i believe he is 28 yrs old so for next 7 years at 5.79 mil cap hit its a great contract.

    once he turns 35 the contract could be voided

  97. Tank The Season on

    And we are well on our way to finishing 5th in the Atlantic Division.

    Can’t wait to see the misery Sather and Dolan have in store for us now…

  98. wow!! really surprised that he’d stay with devils….unless it had something to do with travel. the Kings seem to be just about there for a Cup run and devs just tanked it in the first round.

    i guess lou made him an offer he couldn’t refuse.

  99. That’s the point eric. If he earns most of the cash in the first 6-7 years, then he can retire and the cap hit goes away. Why would he play another 10 years in the NHL for what could be peanuts, when he could cash in again in the KHL.

  100. Tank The Season on

    For those who care, Eklund reports Gagne to Tampa (E5) done deal.

    Yep, last overall here we come.

  101. Doodie Machetto on

    Yeah, a lot of whether this is a good signing for Devs or not (and by proxy, one the Rangers should have made) will be determined by the contract amounts.

    17 years, 100 million would be fine if the bulk is over the first 8 years or so, and then trailing off to the salary minimum for the last 7 years or so.

    If it is structured so plainly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the league step in. They have threatened in the past with Hossa’s 12 year contract. A 17 year deal might just have them say something.

  102. And as oliosmirf mentioned.
    When Staal was on the ice, teams scored 1.87 goals per 60 minutes. When he wasn’t on the ice, opponents scored 2.56 goals per 60 minutes. That means he is significantly reducing scoring when he’s on the ice despite playing against the most talented opponents.

  103. Are we really goin into the season with this team? Im so depressed! But ill still be there for the home opener cheering the Blue Shirts! Life of a rangers fan! lol

  104. Doodie
    I think the league can make some noise but, in the end, won’t affect the deal. If they were going to make a stand, they would have already. Besides, can you see Bettmen voiding the contract, only to stand by and watch the premier free agent (maybe ever) wave bye-bye and go to the KHL?

  105. If the league doesn’t like career-type contract, they’ll fix the loophole it in the next CBA. But I can’t see them doing much more than moaning about it now.

  106. yeah, right. like the league is going to do anything to undermine the devils.
    this is the same league that the moment marty whined about Avery it came up with a new rule
    when players are being carried off the ice for shots to the head
    they need to have committees and look at the situation for months and months and months and…

  107. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, all that stat shows is that he was on the ice a lot against the other team’s best players. It says nothing of his performance.

    Congratulations, you showed me that the Rangers used Marc Staal as a #1 defenseman last year!

    Now show me that he did well.

  108. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, that stat means nothing. I bet if you ran that stat a few years ago with Marek Malik it would have shown similar results.

  109. Doodie Machetto on

    Also, pointing out that the team is better defensively when Staal is playing compared to sieves MDZ, Gilroy, Redden, and Rozsival, again, not saying much.

  110. ESPN_Burnside

    We hear 17 years about in the neighborhood of $150 million.
    less than a minute ago via web

    Can someone please explain to me how that makes sense for the NJ Devils?

  111. Looks like Simon Gagne is going to Tampa


    Gagne to the Bolts according to @DNFlyers
    half a minute ago via web

  112. Coach Beeblebrox on

    Darren –

    Good work on the Staal stats. Anyone who does not see how good this kid is, does not really understand the subtle parts of the game of hockey all that well. These are people who want big hits, or big plays, and if they don’t see it, they think the player is just average. They see no obvious separation so they don’t think its there.

    And I would think the way Staal plays Ovechkin alone, proves he has some snarl. For giving up about 20 pounds, Staal plays Ovechkin as well as anyone in the NHL. In fact Ovechkin himself mentioned Staal among names like Pronger as the toughest guys he has to face.

  113. ESPN_Burnside

    sorry. not quite that much. kovalchuk will have made in excess of 150 million by the time this deal is done including his time in atlanta.
    half a minute ago via web

    Ahh, Burnside is a tool. Looks like the deal is probably for around $100 million.

  114. Awesome guest blog today! Can’t agree more with your sentiments although Steinbrenner wasn’t all champagne and caviar for Yankee fans either, I mean, Yankee fans did give a standing ovation when he was suspended. But on the whole and certainly the point is spot on. Unfortunately, I’m also a Met fan where Jeff Wilpon = James Dolan (a double $%#@$%$ for me!) and with the new stadium and PSL debacle, John Mara has serious Jeff/James potential. Damn these bratty spoiled kids!!

  115. In a salary cap world, 17 years at $150 mil doesn’t make sense for ANY team. Or for ANY player, even Ovechkin.

    But again, we haven’t heard the official terms yet. I know he’s old but I doubt Lou had a senile moment.

  116. Doodie Machetto on

    Wow, reports are 17 million for *$150* !

    8.8 million a year for 17 years. Even with creative contract work, theyre gonna be stuck paying him max dollars for AT LEAST 12 years.

    17 years 100 million, I would’ve thought about because the cap hit is manageable and you could front load the contract so that most of the money is gone in 8 years. Then it’s an easy demotion if he starts to suck. But for that much money? Oh man, I’m so glad we passed.

  117. As I posted many times before I never liked the guy(his arrogant personality anyway), but now I have an official reason to hate him. That’s the only thing about signing Kovalchicken with Debbies for me. Wish both of them tremendous and thunderous failure. Amen.

  118. There is no provision within the current CBA that limits the length of any contract. I’m sure it’ll be addressed in 2 years. That what Lou is hoping for.

  119. would have liked gagne.

    for all the positve people here about the rangers just make sure u stay positive when we are 20-35-10 with 50 points with 17 games left.

    we freaking suck. we have the same team with a spot or 2 open for kids. thats not enough. prospal and christy coming back was a mistake. we need our kids playing 14- 16 mins a night and taking there lumps. it wont happen.

    the whole conf is passing us while we have the same team with maybe an add of mcdonagh and mza

  120. gagne for matt walker and 4th rd pick.

    gagne 5.25 1 yr left
    walker 3 yrs at 1.7 per.

    thats like us trading boogey and 1.6

    or eminger and a 4th

    they wanted no part of the division thing

  121. DNFlyers-

    Done deal: defenseman Matt Walker and a 4th round pick come back for Simon Gagne.

  122. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, I’m still waiting. So far you’ve shown me two stats. One shows that Marc Staal was used by the Rangers against the other team’s best opposition. Pretty meaningless.

    The second, purporting to show the other teams score less when he’s on the ice compared to the other defensemen, ignores two things:

    1) Everyone else on the team is pretty lousy defensively, so saying he is better defensively than them says nothing.

    2) Which forwards was he on the ice with? Remember Malik and Rozsival’s insane plus/minus coming out of the lockout?

    Also, the stat shows nothing compared to other NHL defensemen. And even then, you have to factor in that he has Henrik Lundqvist in net, not some 2nd tier guy.

    The guy is just a top end 2nd pairing guy. You need players like him to win, no doubt. But he simply CANNOT be your best defenseman if you expect to win anything, not unless he improves significantly.

  123. CW,
    great post, and I never looked at it that way…pretty eye opening. What it really tells me is, find a new team!…but I don’t see that happening…yet.

    At least I’m a Yankee fan too!
    I wonder if his sons will become “Dolans”?

  124. TheREALMikeyNJ on

    And F the devils
    I do hope it screws there team up for the future.

    And JCBYTEs are you a devil fan? Cause I know our GM is the absolute worst in any sports history, but you’ll never hear me defending the Debbies organization in anyway, and ESPECIALLY on this blog

    Jsut anohter reason to hate them even more next seasons

    F Kovulchoke & MArty and All the Debbies!!

  125. Tank The Season on

    Philly wouldn’t trade Gagne to us unless we overpaid, and it looks like we weren’t going to do that, so they took what they could get.

    I can only wonder what our move is going to be- will we make Lee Stempniak the next Scott Fraser?

  126. OK cw,

    I’m going to play devil’s advocate here. What if the only difference between Dolan and Steinbrenner were the choices of people to acquire. After all, they both spent money like it was nothing.

    Wait a minute. Dolan eats carcillo. What am I thinking? LOL

  127. Mister Delaware on

    Steinbrenner puts competent people in important roles although it took him a long time to just sit back and let them make the decisions. Dolan puts incompetent people in important roles and apparently gives them free reign to F up as much as possible.

  128. Coach Beeblebrox on

    Doodie::: Well Staal is old and washed up at 23, so he certainly cannot improve at all. How good was Duncan Keith at 23? ANSWER = He had 2 goals and 31 points. Staal had 8 goals and 27 points. That’s pretty similar.

  129. bull dog line on

    could not agree more with you on Staal. what STATS do not show you, is fear an intimidation. opposing players go down Staal side freely, without fear of being hit, they attack the zone much harder, and faster because there is no fear factor when Staal is on the ice. while a poke check is a lost art, it does not make you a shutdown Dman. he lives off a reputation his brothers earned, he has yet to earn his.

  130. Doodie Machetto on

    I’m not saying Staal is old and washed up or any of that. Just that currently, he is not a first pairing defenseman.

    I also don’t think the Staal to Keith age comparison is apples to apples. Keith was in only his second season of NHL hockey on a basement NHL team. Staal just finished his third and had played on 2 playoff teams with a lot of proven veteran winners (albeit, none on defense) before this year.

  131. Doodie Machetto on

    bull dog:

    That’s what I’m saying. Stars don’t change their games for him. Staal is very good at adapting his game to theirs. But that doesn’t shut them down, it just slows them a little.

  132. New Jersey has been fading, but guess what — they still make the playoffs every year. The Rangers can’t even do that. Sather needs to “rebuild” every year, or “fix his mistakes” which is the technical term.

  133. bull dog line on

    kovalchuk with the Devs, thats just great.
    Crosby, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Parise,Carter, Richards, Giroux,Tavares, Staal, Staal, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Stamkos, St Louis, LeCavalier, all in our conference. nah, the Rangers did not need him.

  134. I think it’s very premature to suggest that at 23 he reached his potentials and has no room to improve. The numbers are of little relevance in general since they do contain too many variables. No reason to call him a lifetime 2nd pair d-man. Not yet. I do believe he will improve. Not sure the Rangers have anyone who can coach him, though.

    LMAO @ Carp teaching mama grammar. The newspaper may reach even on golf course

  135. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    First of all nice post CW.

    Next, thanks for the HUGE carping from the last thread. I write war and peace in response to the jagr nonsense and BAZINGA!!! Oh, well, not going to repost at this point but if zzzLGRzzz or anyone else wants to check it out, last thread.

    I love how after all the bad former devil experiences we have had, we want to be head of the line on the parise offer sheet. (not saying I wouldn’t want the guy or even langenbruner for that matter, just making an observation).

    Staal…staal is not a shut down NHL d man. He can be, he certainly has the potential to be, but isn’t there yet. I don’t remember who posted how he handles ovi, and how tough and rugged he is. I agree, boy the way he handles ovi and the way he pummeled semin and ……oh wait, he got beat like a bongo…nevermind. The only way staal becomes a shutdown guy in this league is if we get a guy most of you do not want to show him how to play with and when to play with that edge. Sutton, regher, witt, mitchell (perhaps)…some guy taht most of you say is too slow or too overpaid and just provide grit and experience and that sort of thing is stupid to pay a player for.

    Kovi, ridiculous contract!! I much more upset about not getting gagne. Well, at least the flyers did not get another rugged guy in the deal!!!!!

  136. Doodie Machetto on

    “No reason to call him a lifetime 2nd pair d-man. Not yet.”

    I haven’t. Just saying that’s what he is now. I stand by what I said: If he is your team’s best defenseman, you aren’t winning. They aren’t winning this year. Now, if he improves and becomes that legit #1 pairing guy they drafted him to be, that would be great. As of now though, he just isn’t.

  137. Coach Beeblebrox on

    Doodie::: You don’t think stars change their game to get around Staal? Okay, that does not even make any sense. How many NHL defenders force opposing forwards to change their game? Maybe one? Chara? Who else? Phaneauf perhaps? Okay that’s two so far. And DO NOT say Pronger, because he’s not half the “stopper” people like to think he is.

    I want you to post the 60 names of NHL defencemen that are better than Staal. Because that’s what you are saying. You say he’s not #1 unit material, so you must know of 60 better defenders. Two from each team that are better than Staal at shutting down forwards.

    Bring them on.

  138. “Crosby, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Parise,Carter, Richards, Giroux,Tavares, Staal, Staal, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Stamkos, St Louis, LeCavalier”

    Don’t forget Savard, and Cammilleri who seem to be thorns in NYR’s side. Other notible players are Spezza and Alfredsson.

    Oh yeah, and apparently Dustin Byfuglien is the greatest fat ass player to ever play in the NHL according to some on here, so he’s super duper dangerous too ;)

    Point being, NYR sucks, this season will blow, and we will all cry when game 82 is over with. Actually, I wont, because I’m doing the smart thing by preparing for the worst. But, don’t you all worry, the tissues are on the house!

  139. Good Staal debate!!!

    He will NEVER win a Norris Trophy, but he is very durable, reliable, and versatile. He is worth every bit of $4 mil + per year, and he is gonna get it. If we are gonna debate whether he is a bona fide first pair dman, pick 59 defenseman in the NHL that are better.Then, I will buy that argument. He is without question the best D the NYR have, so let’s sign him up again already!!

  140. No matter how many great players the Rangers have or don’t have, the ranting, Mel Gibson-sound-alike is still the coach.

  141. Dang Carp. First day and I’m already failing!!! So noted….(p.s. I also misspelled Kovy’s name by accident, but went back and fixed that. Don’t tell anybody).

  142. i am definitely looking forward to Kovalchuk vs. Avery dramedy! Can’t wait to see the crying and stomping by a big baby Ilya!

  143. >>…I know our GM is the absolute worst in any sports
    >>history, but you’ll never hear me defending the Debbies
    >>organization in anyway, and ESPECIALLY on this blog

    You mean you’ll never let objectivity or reality get in the way of your fanaticism? Hooray for you, TheREALMikeyNJ! You’re a better Rangers fan than most, ESPECIALLY me.

  144. RGII,

    You mustn’t have noticed stories from the CBC’s terrific
    Elliotte Friedman, saying Rangers had in fact extended an offer to IK, nor yesterdays from Staple @ Newsday saying Kovalchuk WANTED to be a Ranger, all of which I told you FIRST, along with a lot more.

    The enormity of this deal now shows why Kovalchuk had about $80 million other reasons to pass on it.

    And btw, I’ve asked some hockey friends – people who WORK in the game – about this place and what came back sure wasn’t good. I won’t get into it but was told to stay away, and so I shall.

    PS – Rangers are after St. Louis’ Berglund.

  145. Rod,
    Welcome back. I don’t think there is any secret about why a player wouldn’t come here (if that is even true). There is only one reason why a player wouldn’t sign with the NYR. And I will tell you in two words:

    The coach.

  146. simply untrue. the shutdown d pair for the Pens in ’09 when they won the SC was Gill and Scuderi. both of them are average-skating poke checkers who are not physical, even though Gill is a big guy with reach advantage.

  147. . . . . . and for the record, I LIKE the coach. So, if that means no UFA’s, so be it.

    And why didn’t these inside sources tell you that before July 1? I coulda told you that.

  148. Coach Beeblebrox on

    Doodie::: Still waiting for the 60 names. It should be easy for you since you are so sure Staal is not #1 unit material.

  149. RG- apparently you can’t stay away. Nor can people who told you to do so. Otherwise how would they know the place was so bad?

  150. Coach Beeblebrox,
    Thanks for the kudos. And thanks for fighting the good fight. I agree with you completely.
    I don’t know how much good we’ll do by bringing up facts. I read a study recently that concluded that Americans don’t respond as you think they might when presented with facts that contradict their opinions. Instead of seeing holes in their reasoning, most people tend to be reinforce their incorrect stance.

    Sorry I took so long to respond to you. You can extract quality of teammates from the equation if you’d like. Behindthenet and a couple of other sites have the numbers. Even removing any positive effect his linemates might have, Staal stands out in the top 25 of NHL defensemen. I’ll respond with some quality of teammates information in a minute.

  151. ORR

    AGAIN we are on the same page. i hope most of the blog prepares this team for the worse this year. at this moment we ARE NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM AGAIN. i would rather be 14th then 10th so let the kids play the 2nd half of the year once they realize they are DONE from playoff picture

  152. Look at Blueshirts in Paris’ stat –

    Seems pretty straight forward to me…

    Goals against while Staal on the ice / 60 minutes = 1.87

    Then, if you want to factor in that QUALCOMP stat, he did it against tougher competition than ANY Dman in the league.

    He has been effective, I don’t see how that can be argued.

    Would I like to see him, as well as all the Rangers be more physical? Yes (And I think he will be)

  153. So Lou pays the $100m+ asking price and spreads the payments over 17 years, so in 10-12 years or so Kovy will have received the majority of the money he can retire and the last 5-7 years come off the Debbies cap – talk about circumventing the CBA – way to go Lou!!

    Why am i now worried that Slats will overpay for Frolov?

  154. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    Ring Ring…Ring Ring

    Hank: Hello
    Gabby: hey hank it’s gabby

    H: what do you think so far?
    G: well, I’d like to win!

    H: me too!
    G: how’s your protection looking?

    H: aha ha ha, real funny gabby!!
    G: wha?

    H: currently, looks like 6 or 7 stay puft versions. You know status quo!
    G: yeah, sorry. we resigned EC and prospal……..

    H: wow, no help for you on the scoresheet there!
    G: nope! Status quo here as well.

    H: did you at least get protection for your line?
    G: HA, the one thing we have on the team and the coach won’t give it to me!

    H: not too bright is he?
    G: not really! He thinks the more guys he uses on my line the better it is!

    H: Sad. Slats got you a centre though right?
    G: yep, remember EC and prospal! (sarcasm)

    H: well, what about AA?
    G: Guy thinks he’s in the KHL he’s been leveled so many times!

    H: Dubi?
    G: Ha, that guy? I had to drop gloves with carcillo because he wouldn’t do it!

    H: WHAT??
    G: yep, he said I made more money than he did and he isn’t paid enough to fight!

    H: oh wow, home grown guy, so we are allowed to do that!
    G: Is that how it works?

    H: yep! Fans love us and would rather have all of us in the line up than win!
    G: sad! You would think they would want to win.

    H: yes, I want to.
    G: so do I.

    H: so we still need a physical d man or two!
    G: yep, and a first line centre and a physical rugged winger that can score!

    H: Hey, I’m going to have to go, my knee is really starting to hurt!
    G: yeah, my groin isn’t feeling well either!

    H: later!
    G: bye!

  155. bull dog line on

    so you admit there are holes in your reasoning, yet you continue to reinforce your incorrect stance.

  156. I just spent 10 minutes on this:

    This is a list of “fantasy” defensemen, their ranking, etc. DO NOT BUY INTO ANY OF THE NUMBERS!!! Just run down the list, and try to find 20 guys you would rather have than Stall. I am not a Staal lover by any means, but you can not find 20 guys you would rather have than Staal. I stopped at 13. But that was when I got down to Sheldon Souray, so I knew the exercise was over.

  157. ha, wicky channeling Uncle Glennie!

    Does anyone else find it amusing that the chat here forever was about Kovalchuk, and now that the deal’s done, Staal is the overriding subject? I do.

    I sure also wish Carp had some friends who worked in the game. That would be helpful, don’t ya think ;)

  158. Coach Beeblebrox on

    bull dog:: Since Doodie is MIA, how about you? Can you pck out 60 names of superior NHL defencemen compared to Staal?

  159. paul g in sunrise on

    Rangers should have signed Kovi. Top end talent is hard to come by. Room could have been made. Maybe the Rangers tried but we don’t know. Anyway, no chance Parise is not resigned by Devs. They cannot afford to lose him.

    Dolan is very much like George – spending. Unfortunately, we all want to blame him for keeping Sather. Sather has made some bad acquisitions for sure, but Redden and maybe Rozi to an extent aside, he has not done a bad job. Of the earlier July 1st acquisitions, most if not all liked Gomez and Drury. Trading Gomez for Gaborik, McDonogh, piece to get Prust, seems like a pretty good deal. Drury and Redden based on current value (lack thereof) is the problem. Drury in his first season was okay too by the way. Last season his production slipped to epic levels and he is trading on his LLWS ring at this point. But Sather has not done horribly, he has spent the money, sometimes well sometimes not. Sounds a lot like the Yankees. Unfortunately, Sather has not won the cup…yet…So the Rangers have some members that don’t earn their $$$. Drury $$$ aside is still worthy of a top 12 forward spot. Redden is probably on the borderline and removing his cap hit would help the Rangers.

    What I am saying is that while I am realistic about Rangers cup chances EVERY year, I am optimistic that Sather will find another good player to round out this years team. Maybe there will be another kid/prospect like Del Zotto that we can get excited about. Maybe Gilroy will live up to the hype.

  160. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    His partners are certainly an issue, but he needs to be paired with another shutdown type guy or a rugged guy, not a steve eminger or whomever is a marshmallow clone. But the guys he needs to be paired with no one wants.

  161. Coach Beeblebrox on

    cwgatti::: Exactly what I’ve been saying. There is no possible way, using any logic, twisting any fact, to make Staal sit outside the top 60 NHL defenders. Only a complete moron would even try to pick 60 other names. You would only be fooling yourself.

    So to sit there and say things like Staal is not a #1 unit defenceman is just pure ignorance, that’s all I can figure. Because it certainly cannot be based on any other reality other than the old “I just don’t like him” argument that inevitably follow illogical arguments.

  162. I just read the Deadspin website. They have a great take on the Kovy deal. In a language we can all easily understand (NSFW)

    Lou is no fool.

  163. It’s been entertaining to read the Staal debate today. Good job both sides. But while you argue where Staal ranks as a top D in the league, there’s no debate he’s the top D on THIS team right now. And it’s not like you can easily replace him tomorrow. So he’s going to get his money – probably a bit more than he deserves – but that’s the way it goes, and that’s what you get when you want grow young talent and build through youth. Can’t just cultivate it for several years and then just let it walk cause it’s contract time.

  164. Coach,
    As I said before: He will NEVER win a Norris Trophy, but he is very durable, reliable, and versatile.
    Give him his $$$$, and let’s move on.

  165. Coach Beeblebrox,
    Well there’s no stat that can account for the grit Brendan Witt’s wild mane and crazy eyes provide. He counts for 60 first pairing guys himself. Maybe when Marc Staal figures out how to grow a beard he can pony up.

  166. Darren

    You’ve hit on a significant point…the amount of goals against when a particular D man is on the ice.

    Keep in mind that Brian Leetch was often on ice for many goals, simply because he was usually out there when a man down. If a guy is often on the bench during critical periods, he’s gonna have a great GPG average.

  167. Is there a list of players salaries? By Position? Can they be listed in order of highest paid to lowest?

  168. bull dog line on

    Coach, and Darren,
    here is my problem with your take on Staal, you see him as what you want him to be, an elite shutdown Dman. I see him for what he is right now, a good but soft Dman who happens to be the top Dman on a team with a weak D. is he capable of becoming a shutdown Dman? sure, but he has a way to go. the physical side is important, he does not have that part his game yet. there is no edge to his game at all, players take extra wacks at the puck, and Hank, and Staal does not react. until this part of his game shows up, I will go by what my eyes see, a good, but not great Dman.

  169. Sather consistently plays hardball with his homegrown talent, but happily overpays for other team’s players.

  170. “Well there’s no stat that can account for the grit Brendan Witt’s wild mane and crazy eyes provide”

    Darren, sure there is.
    See – Number of SUVs totalled while walking

  171. are the NY Rangers really that much of a failure as having been stated here?

    1. we do have a cup win in last twenty years…more teams and harder than ever to win…im glad we got that one.

    2. we had a great team for nearly a decade watching some of the best hockey we will prolly ever see from our team.

    3. we were expected to flounder once our stars retired or were traded…post lockout we went from not qualifying for playoffs to a team that consistently made playoffs.

    4. Jagr gave us electrifying moments…I remember him standing at center ice to take the shootout against the caps in the Malik goal version…The place was bananas!

    5. yes, sather has killed us with two contracts notably Redden and Drury…but we havent traded our kids for years…nor have we had constant changes in management..these are positives which show in our farm system finally producing players after years of nothing.

    6. do we wish we had a system like Detroit or the hated Devils? of course, but so does everyone else… but i dont think the rangers have been an overwhelming fail like everyone states, and this team isnt that far away as our picks are becoming NHLers. Our defense could be insane in two years and Hank will still be in his prime…Gabby still young…one or two lucky breaks and this team is right there.

    7. If anything can be said about last year’s team, was they lacked chemistry…there was no cohesion…that is more the coaches’ fault than sather or dolan.

    8. We played torts style for less than half a season…then we gave up on it…we go back to pressing and this team becomes a hard team to play again.

    Glass half full.

  172. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    phanuef, regher, volchenkov, kronwall, jack johson, doughty, komisarek, bieksa, hedman, pronger, keith, seabrooke, myers, chara, weber, suter, wisniewski, orpik, stuart, burns, coburn, gleason, sarich, erik johnson, quincy.

    there is 25 guys I’d rather have than staal (not saying I want to get rid of staal, but 25 guys to me that are better than staal)

  173. Thanks for the kind words everybody. I really enjoyed the guest blog. I live in Montauk, and believe it or not, there are a LOT of hockey players out here. Some really interesting guys. I play with some guys that have some serious history, and interesting stories. I wrote 3 different stories for today’s blog. I love the game, and have a pretty extensive collection of hockey books. I am no expert by any means, but I have a passion for it and it was nice to contribute. I would love to have a few beers with the boneheads before a game or two this year.

    We can all complain together.

  174. Doodie Machetto on

    Sorry, I had some work to attend to. I’ll provide you with a list of 60 that I think are better. Please note, it’s not a 2 per team scenario. If it were, by definition, I would lose since I would have to name 2 guys from the Rangers. But 60 guys. You got it. I’m willing to bet Staal will come in around 63-67 since I always say he is a top tier 2nd pairing guy.

    Also, since I am going off of last year’s performances (also with some inclusion of historical performance if I think a guy just had a bad year), I am going to include guys that have announced their retirements. Staal would move up the list accordingly by whatever number of retired guys I list (probably 2). But there are other guys who are capable of making larger leaps in their developments (Bogosian comes to mind).

    I’m just going to go through it slowly but surely. Not in terms of how I actually rank them since that would take more thought.

    First 10:

    1) Niedermayer
    2) Blake
    3) Visnovsky
    4) Boyle
    5) Jovanovski
    6) Yandle
    7) Robidas
    8) Hamhuis
    9) Erhoff
    10) Edler

  175. not to mention the tragic passing of our young Ranger Cherapanov who Jagr himself said was ready for 2nd line NHL at age of 20.

    all these teams have horse dong for goalies..we have a stud…if torts can’t find winning formula with hank in net, then I propose to get someone that can. I hated Renney’s marty schottenheimer approach to coaching with no risk taking, but at least the team played hard for him for quite some time.

  176. GC,
    Haha exactly. Staal can be the squire to Witt’s jock strap at this rate. Maybe he should shoot for something more attainable… Andy “Are you an expert” Sutton?

  177. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    again, staal is not a bad player at all. For him to develop into the kind of shutdown d man we all want, he just needs to be on the right pair. We just do not have that other guy for the pair on the team!

    But what the hell do I know, I’m just a moron according to coach beetlejuice!

  178. Kc, I like that he plays hardball, cause you can’t let these kids walk all over you and demand as much as they want, which they don’t deserve.

    But, on the other hand, I don’t get why he’s so quick to overpay losers.

    Strange old fool!

  179. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    mao and mama

    I love the way these “expert” posters have staal listed as spectactular with horrible partners (i agree he has had horrible partners). So if he is this good at being a shutdown d man with bad partners, why wouldn’t they want him paired with a true physical rugged guy to push him over the top of spectacular???

  180. Coach Beeblebrox on

    bull dog:::

    And you see him as you want to see him, a defender who is not tough enough for your liking, so you rank him outside of a skill point he really sits at.

    Who are these defenceman you like better than Staal? You don’t have to name 60, just name 10.

    And did you miss all the games in which Staal played Ovechkin as tough as AO was played all year? Staal played him tough as heck, he did his best to deal with a guy no defenceman in the NHL can deal with.

    So because Staal is not mean and nasty, he is not a #1 unit guy? I can’t even begin to understand how flawed your logic is. But the things you cite are also not able to be quantified in real terms, they are a matter of opinion.

    Staal is not some soft wuss, just because he does not flatten guys every game. He’s a defenceman, and his job is to get the puck away from opposing forwards so the team can start a transition the other way. Just because he is not providing EVERY element possible for an NHL defenceman does not make him less of a player.

    You’ve basically said you don’t like Staal because he does not crack skulls when Lundqvist gets some snow pushed in his face. You seem to think that this is part of being a shutdown defenceman. I’m not even sure what to say to that.

  181. Wicky,
    You are reaching on quite a few of these guys.
    Komisarek? Wisniewski? those guys may be more vicious than Staal, but they aren’t better. Not by a longshot.
    But, that is your opinion. And I believe the NYR could use a physical D too.

  182. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    great point, witt walked away. Any of the rangers d men (with the exception of MDZ) would have sat there crying wait for the ambulance. Beautiful stat my friend, beautiful.

  183. Coach Beeblebrox on


    I don’t even recall addressing you. So when did I call you a “moron” exactly? And your last post does not even make sense. You think Staal is a #1 unit guy, but only with the right partner? What does that mean?

    Is his partner supposed to be an offensive guy or a defensive guy? Or a two-way guy like Staal himself?

  184. Doodie Machetto on

    Next 10:

    11) Bouwmeester
    12) Reghyr
    13) Sarich
    14) Gilbert
    15) Whitney
    16) Hannan
    17) Quincey
    18) Zidlicky
    19) Burns
    20) Barker

  185. Doodie,
    Didn’t Neidermeier retire? You aren’t gonna put Larry Robinson on your list, too? You will need Bobby Orr as well, cause you ain’t getting to 60. No way. No how.

  186. ThisYearsModel on

    We dealt for another goon defenseman. Hartford should be full of fights this season.

  187. Doodie Machetto on

    “And did you miss all the games in which Staal played Ovechkin as tough as AO was played all year? Staal played him tough as heck, he did his best to deal with a guy no defenceman in the NHL can deal with.”

    More defensemen to come from me, but first, he may have kept Ovechkin from going off against the Rangers(hardly shut him down), but did so at the expense of Backstrom running roughshod over the team for 3 goals and 4 assists in 4 games.

  188. Coach Beeblebrox on


    Okay well your #1 and #2 on that list are retired, so you better try again.

    Jovonovski was minus-68 over the last three years so you’d better try again with him.

    Edler, not way is he better than Staal.

    And really, argument could be made for every one of those names. Boyle is certainly NOT better in his own end than Staal.

  189. Michabenjamin on

    On a side note, since we all love Seinfeld and know Carps unhealthy love of it…

    On twitter, @darthvader started a hash tag, #swseinfeld. It’s basically lines from Seinfeld that would be interpeted and relevant to the Star Wars universe. Very funny.


    Yoda, yoda, yoda…

    @darthvader: But are you still master of your domain? @obiwan: I am King of the Kenobis. You? @darthvader: Lord of the Sith.

    @darthvader He’s a carbonite boy! What’s a carbonite boy? He lives in carbonite! Boy. #SWSeinfeld

    This guy makes the BEST droids padme, the BEST! #SWSeinfeld

    “Who invaded Geonosis in the first century BBY?” “That’s a joke. The Clones.” “Oh, noooo, I’m so sorry. It’s the Clowns.” #SWSeinfeld

    “Maybe the sarlacc ate your baby!” #SWSeinfeld

    Oh look Elaine, the Sith and Jedi cookie. I love the Sith and Jedi. Two forces of flavor living side by side #SWSeinfeld

    No Jedi training for you! Come back one year! #SWSeinfeld

    Just gave a few of the really good ones. Lots more.

  190. If there was a gong behind me, I would hit it right now to get Doodie to stop becausle he has a retired guy in the top 10, and at least 2 guys that Staal is better than.


  191. Doodie Machetto on

    cw, I have to use the sample size of NHL play that I have seen. Included in the most recent sample are two guys that have recently retired. If I am to base Staal’s rank among defenseman from the past season properly, those guys must be included as they were better than he was.

    If I were allowed to project where he would fall this upcoming season, that would involve me making projections not only about him, but over many other NHL defensemen. Therefore, the most objective standard to judge him oon is based on where he was at the end of last season. That includes players that have since retired.

  192. Coach Beeblebrox on


    C’mon man, are you seriously just picking names out of a hat? Zidlicky? Quincey? Neither of these guys are better defenceman than Staal, not even close. They score more points but that’s about it.

  193. Scott Hannan? Brent Burns? Kyle Quincey?
    I don’t know how to respond to that. Facts apparently have no use.

  194. You better use Brian Leetch too, cause you can’t name 30. Seriously. Objective, subjective, whatever. Throw in Zubov. He’s still alive.

  195. Doodie Machetto on

    also, cw, if you had read earlier, it is not a ranking of guys in order, just a list of 60. The numbers are there purely to keep track.

    Beeblebrox, you asked for better defensemen. There is more to being valuable as a defenseman than play in the defensive zone.

    And I absolutely stand by everybody I have listed so far. I’m starting with west coast guys because you CLEARLy aren’t familiar with these guys if you think Staal is better.

  196. Coach Beeblebrox on


    Niedermayer? LOL that’s rich! Did you even watch a single game he played last year?

  197. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    This is ridiculous, because I think he is way overvalued. 3 mil is a good price for him, 4 or 5 mil is too high in my opinion. Is he the probably our best d man on the team right now, yep. No argument there. Would I rather have bieksa right now than him, yes. Komisarek, yes. Why, because those players ARE more vicious than him. When we do these comparisons and debates here about players and how good and what they bring, i llok at one thing first and foremost. What the rangers need to be better. I take personal feelings about players out of the equation, it doesn’t matter if I like them or not as players. We need vicious on the back end because we need it very badly. I would dump R and R, girardi, gilroy, before I would ever dump staal to get it, but we are talking about staal, so I listed guys that I thought were better at being vicious than staal (probably are 60 guys out there better than him in that aspect) that could still be on the number one pair with the rangers (probably are 60 guys out there that could do that as well with the sad blueline we have).

  198. Olga Folkyerself on

    Nice Post CW! Spot on!

    You forgot to mention one thing-


    Re: Kovalchuk, 100MM for 17 years? The league should void that as they are blatantly trying to circumvent the Salary Cap.

  199. Geez,
    Thanks for ruining my blog. Jovo, Hannan, Edler. . . . and it was going so well.

  200. bull dog line on

    what facts do you keep referring to.
    the physical angry part, is part of the whole package for Dmen. he is not offensive, and he’s not physical, he kind of blends in with the boards on a lot on nights.

  201. congrats to darren for schooling the self proclaimed all knowing doodie in the staal debate. well done sir.

  202. Wicky,
    Since when does being vicious make a defenseman better? A defenseman’s job (and any skater’s job) is to decrease opponent scoring and/or increase his own team’s scoring. Staal is exceptionally good at decreasing opponent scoring. He’s one of the best in the league already and he’s not at his peak yet.
    In other words, when he’s on the ice, he sways the balance from opponent production to Rangers’ production. He does this regardless of teammates on the ice with him. That is the definition of a good d-man.

  203. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    first of all i apologize if I misinterpreted your moron comment. I thought you posted if anyone tried to list 25 guys, they would be morons for doing it, I posted 25, so I thought I was a moron in your eyes.

    What I was attempting to convey is, some of you are saying staal is this awesome shutdown guy and his has achieved this with below avg partners. I was simply trying to explain that if you think he is great at being a shutdown guy now, imagine how goos he could be in a few years as a shutdown d man if he were given a rugged, physical partner with NHL experience that could show him how to excel at that role!!!

  204. Doodie Machetto on

    Next 10. This makes 30 and I’m still not done with the Western Conference.

    21) Lidstrom
    22) Rafalski
    23) Stuart
    24) Kronwall
    25) Erik Johnson
    26) Weber
    27) Suter
    28) Keith
    29) Seabrook
    30) Johnnson

  205. Jagr calls Wicky

    JJ: Hello, is wicky home?
    W: This is he.

    JJ: Hey wicky, this is Jaromir Jagr, I used to play for the Rangers…remember me?
    W: Maybe…

    JJ: I hear you said I was a crappy Captain! I’m coming to Montana…we have to talk!

    {Sound of phone hanging up…busy signal…}

    JJ: Wicky, are you still there?

    Phone operator: If you’d like to make a call, please hang up and dial again.


  206. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    because vicious changes the way opposition players play on the ice. You tell me that when scott stevens was on the ice that players did not change the way they play. That they did not change the way they viewed the ice a little bit, to pay a little more attention to where he was on the ice. That is what i’m saying.

  207. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    I asked you not to give my number out to your friends!!!!

  208. Doodie Machetto on

    Beeble, yes, I did watch Nidermayer play. My brother is a big Sharks fan (he followed Kelly Kisio). I saw A LOT of Niedermayer. DID YOU watch him play? He wasn’t the stud he used to be, but he was still an excellent player.

    rounding out the rest of the Western conference:

    31) Doughty
    32) Jack Johnson
    33) Scuderi
    34) Michalek (overlooked him earlier because he moved to Ottawa)

    The 26 from the East will admittedly be much harder since I only have 12 teams to work with (nobody on the Rangers, Islanders, or Thrashers comes to mind).

  209. hey guys, just checking up on you. How’s the off season thing going? Not much on our end, we just picked up a winger and 2 dmen in FA. Oh, and we also got the Preds captain. Nothing special on our end.

    How about you? Ol’ Slats always has something brewing. Tell us, what is it??

  210. Wicky,
    Scott Stevens brand of interference and hits to an opponent’s head is no longer legal. He was great for his own era. But the things he got away with are regulated much more closely now. That kind of player does not exist in the NHL anymore. Shut down defensemen have to inhibit opponent production without that “grit.” Do you honestly think the top snipers in the game change their games every night to avoid top 60 defenders?

  211. Doodie Machetto on

    East to come tomorrow, time to go home.

    Also, gonna look over the West again, I may have forgotten some guys. Hard to do this off your head. I’ll look at a list later.

  212. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, I think you think that guys 1 and guy 60 are close to each other. After guys 1-10 (or whatever the number may be where the elite talent stops), there is a big drop off to the next group. There are only a few shut down guys that genuinely affect how other teams play their game. That’s what makes them the elite guys.

    Stevens was a generational talent in that respect. God help you if your head wasn’t kept on a swivel when he was on the ice.

  213. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    yes, i do. Are they afraid to go out on the ice, no. But if (pulling a random name here) kronwall, lights up gionta and he can’t play for the remaining 43 minutes of a game (not wishing serious injury on anyone) he has with a vicious hit effectively changed that game and eliminated that scoring threat.

    If he hits him hard enough that perhaps gionta doesn’t want to take that type of hit again and does not quite apply himself to going into corners frequently or won’t quite extend himself to get that pass, then the vicious nature has changed the game. And we have all seen some players shy away from contact at different times, so it is an effective attribute to have.

    Interference type hit. This league is turning into an 82 game schedule of all star games with those hits being called interference and the stupid skills competition.

  214. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    for all you avery haters out there, kovi resigning with the devs may have just secured the bane of your existence is here for quite a while.

  215. Doodie,
    I do not think that guys 1-60 are close at all. That’s partially why it’s so appalling you fail to see Staal as part of that upper echelon.
    I was replying to Wicky’s suggestion that there are players of Scott Stevens ilk in the current NHL upper echelon of defenders. There are none of course as that style of play has been regulated.

  216. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    last I checked, and I could be wrong here, hockey was a physical contact sport.

  217. Kings prospect Brayden Schenn had 99 points in 59 games. Anybody know if he plays in a “defense first league”? :P

    Seriously though, I’ll never forget Brian Burkes face when the Kings drafted Schenn. He liked like he was ready to kill and cry.

  218. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    I don’t think I said there was a scott stevens out there, guess i could be mistaken though!

  219. Wicky,
    Hockey surely is a physical sport. And I enjoy seeing good hits as much as the next guy. But I also enjoy winning and seeing good defense. And good defense does not require being a goon.
    Conversely, being a goon is not enough to be capable of defending anymore and does not make a player a better defender. If it was and did, Derian Hatcher would not have been forced to retire.

  220. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, since you think Staal is in that “elite” category, list the players that you think he is better than. Shouldn’t be more than 10 guys before there is that dropoff.

  221. Wicky,
    You implied that there were players like Stevens who change the way opponent skaters play.

  222. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    OMFG!! Are you THAT guy that thinks to be rugged and physical means that you are a goon?? really? Do rugged and physical d men drop the gloves more than marshmallows, sure, they sitck up for their teammates and goalie. Name one guy I put up on that list of 25 that is a goon?

    This is sad, if you think rugged and physical means goon than you have a lot lower hockey IQ than I thought and I am honestly not trying to insult you. If you think positionally sound means physical, I am also a bit disappointed.

  223. Tank The Season on

    So do the Rangers have any plans to sign a UFA now or will it be a “go into training camp with what we have, maybe offer a tryout to an unsigned player, see what happens” kind of thing?

  224. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    I didn’t mean to imply they were like stevens, simply that physical hard hitting styles can certainly affect a game. I used stevens as an example. I also used kronwall from the wings as an example earlier. I could use bueke or someone else if you prefer. volchenkov?

  225. I did not forget anybody. the pair of Gonchar and Orpik did NOT play against the opponent’s top line most of the time. that was the Gill-Scuderi pairing that played against the Ovechkin line etc most of the time

    and Gonchar is certainly NOT a physical player. Orpik is. he is a big hitter who is also a good shutdown type guy

    the other dmen were Letang and Eaton. iow, they had one physical dman, Brooks Orpik, 2 skaters, Letang and Gonchar, and 3 poke checkers

  226. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    it should have read, just like stevens, not like stevens. Sorry!

  227. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    love the way we trade for a guy and immediately the negativity starts about him by posting a video of him losing a fight. Seriously people, at least he has the courage to fight which is more than can be said about the majority of our roster.

  228. from wicky above

    H: Dubi?
    G: Ha, that guy? I had to drop gloves with carcillo because he wouldn’t do it!

    H: WHAT??
    G: yep, he said I made more money than he did and he isn’t paid enough to fight!

    H: oh wow, home grown guy, so we are allowed to do that!
    G: Is that how it works?

    H: yep! Fans love us and would rather have all of us in the line up than win!
    G: sad! You would think they would want to win

    post of the day. is he traded yet

  229. Doodie,

    1) Niedermayer
    2) Blake
    3) Visnovsky
    5) Jovanovski
    7) Robidas
    8) Hamhuis
    10) Edler
    11) Bouwmeester
    12) Reghyr
    13) Sarich
    14) Gilbert
    15) Whitney
    16) Hannan
    17) Quincey
    18) Zidlicky
    19) Burns
    20) Barker
    22) Rafalski
    23) Stuart
    24) Kronwall
    25) Erik Johnson
    27) Suter
    29) Seabrook
    30) Johnnson *(you listed three Johnsons)*
    32) Jack Johnson
    33) Scuderi
    34) Michalek

  230. Coach Beeblebrox on


    Okay well obviously you have a very odd way of rating defencemen, because I’m at a loss. There seemed to be no rhyme or reason to your list, you obviously do not value Staal on par with most people.

    Honestly I cannot even reason with some of the some of the names you put on that list. So far I’d agree with about 5 of them at best. Putting a guy like Niedermayer on there seems like a joke. He was a minus-9 last year, and looked like a complete moron most nights. Ducks fans were BOOING him on a regular basis. And you feel he’s better than Staal? I don’t even know how you can rationalize or defend a choice like that.

  231. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, I listed two Johnsons (Erik & Jack) and one Johnnson (Kim).

    Beeble, don’t come at me with plus/minus. It’s the most useless tell of a players ability. Marek Malik had MONSTER plus/minus numbers. So did Rozsival. Also, I don’t remember booing with the Ducks until later in the season when it was clear the Ducks were cooked, and it certainly wasn’t being directed towards Niedermayer in particular. In fact, I remember there being a brawl in the stands for a hockey stick he tried to give a little girl early in the season.

  232. Doodie Machetto on

    Beeblebrox, pick the names you agree with so I can laugh at who you think Staal is better than. Please tell me you think he is better than someone like Erik Johnson so I can just completely disregard anything you ever say because you are suffering from blatant homerism.

  233. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    i do not like the plus minus stat to be honest with you, but If you are going to use it bear in mind that staal’s was the 30th best last year for d men. That would indicate that 29 guys were better than him if you use that stat. I don’t like the stat at all, but just saying.

    I don’t know but morg posted a video of him losing a fight if that helps.

  234. Kim Johnsson? Maybe you should have just stuck with two Eriks or two Jacks. It would have looked better. Kim Johnsson, offensive defensiveman, had a stellar 14 points in 52 games last year.

  235. Doodie is one of those who ranks a defenseman by how much they hit and how many points they have.

    anyone who doesnt think Staal is top 60 defenseman in the NHL is absolutely nuts. No matter who you ask he is widely regarded by everyone in and an around the league as one of the best in the game.

  236. Doodie Machetto on

    Kim Johnsson, incredibly underrated defensive player, logs big minutes, plays a sound defensive game. He has never been a pure offensive guy.

  237. Doodie Machetto on

    Actually, I don’t rank them by how they hit and how many points they have. That’s why a guy like Johnsson gets on the list.

  238. Doodie Machetto on

    Darren, the list of most of the 34 names I listed, is that who you agree with me on?

  239. Doodie,
    I’ll give you Johnsson’s sound defensively. He is. But he’s not anywhere near Staal’s level today.

  240. doodie was punked today. his arguments had no merit whatsoever. he is just too stubborn to admit defeat. he does quit on the team every year though but won’t admit losing a debate. he was pwned today and i love it.

  241. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    I agree staal is certainly in the top 60, easily in the top 40 right now in my opinion. He could develop into the top 20 for sure.

    Nothing wrong at all in rating d men by hits, they are DEFENCEmen after all not OFFENCEmen. There is nothing wrong with having a couple of point getting d men on your blueline as long as it is a balanced one with a couple of grit rugged guys and a couple of vanilla, all around guys. Problem is we really have one point guy (MDZ) and 5 vanilla guys at this point.

  242. I don’t see that Staal debate being very objective on both ends. You can certainly find many people who would agree with Doodie. You can also find many people who would find more than half of Doodie’s list to below Staal’s abilities.
    Using Seinfeld reference: “I don’t know how official any of these rankings really are”.

    Wicky- can anyone list a video of him winning the fight?

  243. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    Sad part is, guys like semenov, sutton, exelby should look great to us just because of how soft our blueline is.

  244. Doodie Machetto on

    See, there are so many names still on there that I consider obvious (both Johnsons, Rafalski, Suter, Reghyr) that I know you are just suffering from blatant homerism. Staal ISN’T that good. He just isn’t. I wish he was, really, I do. He’s not.

    Honestly, I was probably reaching with some of those names (Johnsson, Quincey, Hannan) just to prove a point, but to say that Staal is better than some of the guys in that parenthetical (among others that are still on the list) is even more ridiculous. At least I could argue for the guys I listed. There is no rational argument where you can say Marc Staal is better than Ryan Suter or Erik Johnson.

  245. Doodie Machetto on

    And by the way, Zapphod Beeblebrox was the worst character in the entire series of books!

  246. At this point, staal argument is even more annoying than cupcake jokes.

    Which brings me to…

    Staal argument cupcake – is like arguing about whose cow gives more milk…

  247. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    man brooks is just ripping apart long term contracts on twitter, that guy is a riot.

  248. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    I can’t wait to see how much he signs for…..that will be one hell of a debate topic!!

  249. Doodie Machetto on

    I am being too harsh on Staal. Going through the listing of defensemen I see in fairness, he should finish a lot higher than I had projected.

    Still, the way you guys think about him; I feel like I’m talking to Joe Micheletti or something!

  250. im done talking about Staal…he is just delusional

    Exelby is not good at all…sure he hits people and plays with an edge but he is a career -28 and was a healthy scratch a number of times the past 2 seasons playing for bad teams of Atlanta and Toronto

  251. Tank The Season on

    What do we have to give Dallas for Richards? Will Dubinsky and Gilroy be enough?

    No, I do not particularly care for Dubinsky. Gilroy I just can’t see in our Top 6. We had ANDERS ERIKSSON play over him.

  252. Czechthemout!!!! on

    Staal is defiantly in the top 60 of dfensmen. But I don’t know if you can put him in the top 40.

  253. that was a vid of McCue getting beat so bad that he ended up in the echl within the next month..just sayin..but yeah he started winning some echl bouts..great..,more wolfpack depth me thinks.

  254. with or without Brad Richards we are not a legit playoff team. you do not trade good young players like Dubinsky for veterans unless you are a contender which we clearly are not

  255. Kovalchuk Cap Hit: 6 Million
    Drury Cap Hit: 7+ Million
    Redden Cap Hit: 6.5 Million


    Rangers didn’t make the playoffs last year. Summer improvement: Jody Shelly for Derek Booguard.

    Look at the rest of the Eastern Conference.

    My prediction this year is the Rangers finish with 10 Less points then the Islanders.

    Thanks Sather. Thanks Dolan.

  256. A Local Fan

    didnt know the NHL awarded stanley cups based on how many points you are in comparison to the Islanders.

    coming in 5th-8th place every season is not a recipe for success…in order to win you need to have franchise players developed internally and then compliment them with outside help…not the other way around.

    it will take some time but if the propsects develop as planned then this team will be a perrenial playoff team and will contend for stanley cups…isnt that more important than just squeezing in every season???

  257. Oleo,

    Yes I agree. But where is this internal talent? All of our hyped up talent get traded away every year…Bobby S….Laurie K….Nigel D…

    Staal and Hank are it..thats the extent of it…

    Yes we signed the injury prone gaborik but then we waste 1.8 mill on a 3 min per game enforcer…Jody Shelley atleast could contribute and was a great lockerroom guy…

  258. Kovalchuk Cap Hit: 6 Million
    Drury Cap Hit: 7+ Million
    Redden Cap Hit: 6.5 Million


    Rangers didn’t make the playoffs last year. Summer improvement: Jody Shelly for Derek Booguard.

    Look at the rest of the Eastern Conference.

    My prediction this year is the Rangers finish with 10 Less points then the Islanders.

    Thanks Sather. Thanks Dolan.

    Posted by fan of all on 07/19 at 07:42 PM

    he is hitting ranger rants too. i forgot middle school is out for the summer

  259. oleosmirf

    I’m not sure if you’re aware but there’s an unwritten rule on this blog – never respond to local fan.

  260. Local Fan,
    I think you might be exaggerating Shelley’s contribution on the ice. He has never really contributed other than with his fists on the ice. We had just a small sample size for him and he’s more likely to perform at the same rate as he did for the rest of his career: zero offense and defensive liability. We are vastly overpaying Boogard, however, on his own merits

  261. hopefully rozi and draft picks will be enough for richards since rozi has 2 years left at 5 mil per and richards in contract year. 7.8 per dallas needs d help however they are also having financial problems so they would save 2.8 mil this year but will have to pay 5 mil next or look to deal rozi at trade deadline

  262. Some people never learn. They always respond to the Local Dope. It’s kind of embarrassing.

    But, you can’t argue that this team will blow, and we’ll have to deal with the same BS.

    No scoring
    Crappy PP

  263. Orr,
    It’s not like there was a free agent winger that could help our scoring and power play at a price we could afford under the cap if we waived Redden. Oh wait…

  264. CCCP + ORR

    sorry i was not aware but i dont believe we will “suck”.

    i dont think we are any worse than we were last season. we should see improved production from Dubi, Callahan, Anisimov, MDZ, Gilroy and hopefully the addition by subtraction from Redden and more rest for Hank will help.

    By no means are we going to be contenders but we will be younger, faster and competitive…

  265. Staal argument is getting old but just want ti say that the list if “better” dmen is laughable. 1/2 of the guys listed are ancient history (niedermeir & Blake) other had some good runs but would not be top dmen on most teams (kronwall). Other names are just ridiculous ti compare to staal…Kim johnssan, really?

  266. Orr

    it probably isn’t enough but if enough things break right (breakout year from Dubi/Anisimov, Zuccarello Aasen has a Prucha season). I mean we missed the playoffs by 1 game last season, i dont think it is that farfetched to believe we can finish next season with 91 points instead of 87…

  267. ZzZz NYR ZzZz " Kovalwaste !! " … says Greg L. on

    Talk about a load of Carp. Nice atempt at a guest blog cwgatti but it sucks. Your depressing view should never have made a guest post. How embarrassing.

  268. ZzZz NYR ZzZz " Kovalwaste !! " … says Greg L. on

    Geeze this week is gonna suck!!! Sure hope someone actually writes something interesting.

    Saying the Rangers will suck is just fans pouting over not getting Kovaljunk. Our team is getting better cuz our young core is maturing.

  269. Oleo, the only reason why we came that close to making the playoffs is because the Flyers had a ridiculous year of injuries. That’s the only reason. Not only that, we had the easiest schedule, yet, we couldn’t make the playoffs.


  270. Doodie,
    How could you destroy any credibility you had in just a few short hours?

  271. Good post cwgatti!

    Flyers fans are pissed about the Gagne trade according to their beat writers on Twitter. I would be, too, since it sounds like they may just bury Walker in the minors. Good job by Yzerman!

    @DNFlyers: Yes, they could certainly do that. They probably will. RT @tsgodfrey can they just bury Walker in the AHL and avoid his cap hit?

    @philabright: For the out-of-towners, Flyers fans are irate at the Gagne trade. There’s a sense of disbelief and outright anger at Paul Holmgren.

    @philabright: For his style of play, it’s remarkable how beloved he was in PHI. RT @sbaicker Gagne: the thing I will miss the most are the Flyers fans

  272. Tank The Season on

    I never wanted Kovalchuk for the simple reason that he does NOT make the players around him better – which I think is a baseline requirement of someone who gets a ridiculous lifetime contract like he got.

    However, if the Rangers legitimately felt they could do better than him, and either were unwilling or unable do what was necessary to get him, I’d love to see what “plan” they have in mind. I think we all agree that staying the course with this roster (without even replacing a departed “Top-6” forward in Jokinen) is a season down the tubes.

    Unless MSG still clings to the LeBron pipedream of throwing entire seasons away and not getting as much talent as possible because “The Guy” will supposedly be “available” next offseason.

  273. Don’t worry about Staal. At least while we haven’t signed anybody else.

    @JimCerny: Sather also says if Marc Staal receives RFA offer sheet #NYR will match “without a doubt”

  274. Orr

    well we finished what 2 points behind Montreal in the 7th spot, look im not saying we are going to make the playoffs but we certainly wont be bottom dwellers.

    i think the team has potential if our young players really come through…and even if we do miss the playoffs is it really that big of a deal if Stepan, Grachev and others are featured late in the season and get their feet wet and speed up their development

  275. Also:

    @JimCerny:Brian Boyle is going to have to be VERY good in camp not to end up in Hartford

    (not from Sather, but Cerny’s thought)

  276. Olga Folkyerself on

    “The New York Rangers have acquired defenceman Matt McCue from the Anaheim Ducks for forward Tomas Zaborsky.”

    Oh, Boy! Slats acquires the final piece of the puzzle. Stanley Cup – here we come!

    Devils get Kovalchuk, and Sather is swapping cardboard cutouts of hockey players with the Mighty Ducks.


  277. Olga Folkyerself on

    Sather’s idea of development is 10 games as a Ranger spread over two seasons, then a trade to Florida for a washed up minor leaguer and a 5th round pick.

  278. Olga

    the Rangers have completely changed their mindset since Renney and Clark took over player development…the old ways are over…

    Sather will still make the bonehead signing but player development is something we have excelled in lately. we have a top 5-10 farm system. We havent had that in like 20 years…

  279. Greg, really? Mama is kind of disappointed in your comment, from one regular bonehead to another. Not nice. Don’t dis til you’ve tried it my friend. And in July.

    wicky, loved your post at 5:34 :)

    ORR, the Staal debates are killing the fish (OK, that one doesn’t work as well)

    Were any of the guest bloggers planning on discussing Staal? I sure hope not at this point!

    Uncle Glennie, people are tapping your phone….

  280. Olga Folkyerself on

    Oleo- Really? Bobby Sanguinetti- 5 games as a NY Ranger, traded to Carolina for a 2nd and 6th round pick…

  281. Olga Folkyerself on

    Cory Potter- 8 games as a NY Ranger. Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the Pittsburgh Penguins. Sather didn’t even get a pick that time…

  282. well I believe it is b/c we had a surplus of d-men not b/c he was a bust. If we didnt get McDonagh by trade, he would probably be on the team this season.

    Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, are top 6 forwards that are homegrown. Girardi, Staal, Gilroy, McDonagh are 4 defenseman homegrown. Throw in Zuccarello (the most likely to be a top 9 forward) and that is more young homegrown talent then we’ve had in years…

  283. NJ on the Hook for Ilya til 2027 …. Just sounds comical

    Maybe Lou has the inside track that 2012 is real and he’s getting the steal of the century by getting Kovi at a 6 million dollar cap hit ??

  284. Olga Folkyerself on

    PA Parenteau- 22 games as a NY Ranger. Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the New York Islanders.

    Is it the development that is suspect? Or the drafting?

  285. Olga Folkyerself on

    Don’t let the contract fool you. Ilya will disappear to the KHL 10 minutes after his salary drops to 550K/ year.

  286. All, I’m here, reading and watching….that’s all I’ll say for now, if you know what I mean.

    cw, great first day btw. treats all around!

  287. Boogard will bring us to the promise land.
    I love Glen Sather.
    We are Rangers.
    I am a Ranger
    I am so obviously a pathetic Ranger.
    a pathetic ranger fan…

  288. I said this very deal for Kovy is what should be given. 15 years, 20 years, or 100 years, $100 million with most or all of the money coming early on in the contract. Boom! Looks like I should be working for the Devils organization, an organization that actually knows how to operate and skirt the rules!

  289. Local fan is back! WooooHooooo! How did your Bruins enjoy getting beaten up 3-0 in a series and up 3-0 in Game 7!!

  290. “New Homegrown Kids” will eventually push out the “Old Homegrown Kids” when talking about players like Potter and Sangs. McD and Valentenko made them expendable

    Honestly, how many rookies do you guys want to see in the lineup at one time??

    NO TEAM has more than 3-4 rookies in the lineup to start the season. This whole “let the kids play” saying is fine, and a good process to implement, but to an extent.

    Possible 1st year players – MZA, McD, Grachev, Stepan, Weise, possibly Byers

    2nd year players – MDZ, Gilroy, AA

    *We are Young … We are fine*

  291. I meant to say earlier…


    Awesomely awesome, tremendously tremendous post with great compliments to the one and only Boss!

  292. If we were gonna keep trading for big, goon defensemen, then trade 1 of our puck moving D-men prospects, then why the hell did we pass on Cam Fowler??

    makes no sense.

    Now our prospect Depth chart on Defense is:

    Ryan McDonagh
    Michael Sauer
    Matt McCue
    Tomas Kundratek
    Nigel Williams
    Daniel Maggio
    Pavel Valentenko
    Sam Klassen
    Tysen Dowzak
    Mihail Pashnin
    Jyri Niemi
    Dylan McIlrath

    They are all tagged with the Shut-Down role tyoe D-man – Not a slick, puck mover in the bunch

  293. they didnt want Fowler b/c they dont need offensive minded defenseman, they wanted a big bruiser.

    and this McCrue guy is not an NHL prospect. He is just a body to play in the ECHL…

  294. Dont know if someone has mentioned this….

    Has anyone seen how the Lightning roster is coming together. They will likely have a better team than us this upcoming year, especially with the addition of Ellis.

    Amazing, new GM comes in and immediately begins to right the ship.

  295. Olga Folkyerself on

    “I would take everyone on that prospect list over Staal.”

    Sather! What are you doing in Delaware?

  296. from oleosmirf

    Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, are top 6 forwards that are homegrown. Girardi, Staal, Gilroy, McDonagh are 4 defenseman homegrown. Throw in Zuccarello (the most likely to be a top 9 forward) and that is more young homegrown talent then we’ve had in years…

    dubinsky very questionable on being top 6 forwards. mcdonagh was traded for. mza was signed as free agent so how are either of them “homegrown”

  297. Yeah, like Oleo said, this kid is just a nobody who will never come close to making the NHL.

    I still would have prefered Fowler, but it’s a pointless arguement. We’ll have to wait and see the outcome.

  298. Geez, why is everyone talking about Kovalchuk? Not one mention of the A-Train??? Anton Volchenkov, the top Dman on the FA list? Arnott? Maybe a hot shot back up goalie, Hedberg?

    What do these 3 players all have in common???????






    All clients of Jay Grossman. Lou had him from Pryvyet.

  299. don’t need to explain why Dubinsky is a top 6 player. his stats say it all. no reason to waste my time on someone as clueless as you…

  300. Yes, Olga. As CW pointed out, Dolan does not care about winning, simply put. If the Knicks or Rangers win again under this regime, it will be because we lucked into it.

  301. Well, I see it’s gonna be another long and lovely two weeks in July for me.

    Carp, I’ve never ever said this before, but you owe me lunch at Walter’s :) Two please, with the curly fries and a chocolate shake.

    work, work, work (walter’s dog to the person who can name that RR post and where that phrase came from)

  302. I’m not a Dublowsky fan, but he’s definitely, at the very least, a top 6 forward.

    As for “home grown”, I would consider Hobbit and Gilroy both home grown since no other NHL team “grew” them, lol.

  303. I know, the Rangers are slowly horading all good defensive prospects so that other NHL teams will be forced to trade their top end forwards to us. Brilliant!

  304. oleosmirf

    3 nhl seasons


    points. that is not top 6 forward

    mza and mcdonagh are not homegrown either. clueless might be you?

  305. OK…you can all exhale. The deed is done.

    All is serene on the trade, switch, and overpay front.

    Time to look seriously at the upcoming season

  306. by that logic Girardi, Gilroy, arent homegrown either… i guess

    and yes 20 goals 24 assists makes you at least a 2nd line player…Dubinsky’s 44 points would have made him the 6th leading scorer (thats top 6 player) on the Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks.

    now goodbye im done with you…credibility = 0

  307. Olga Folkyerself on

    Nose picker has been digging up there so long, I think he’s scooped out his brains. He’s definitely gone in past the second knuckle…

  308. oleosmirf

    he wouldn’t have had 44 points if he played on chicago. third liner and no power play time on that team.

  309. Nose Picker, you’re right on McDonagh, but MZA hasn’t been a part of any organization in the NHL. So, if you don’t consider him home grown, then that means every prospect either signed or drafted isn’t home grown.

    And 20 goals 20 assists are 2nd line numbers, for the most part.

  310. drafted or signed when very young is homegrown. say less than 21 if signed as free agent. mza and girardi are close though. gilroy and mcdonagh definitely not.

  311. if you trade for a prospect and he makes his debut with your team he is homegrown…

    that is like saying Lindros wasn’t a homegrown Flyer b/c he was drafted by the Nordiques…

  312. nose picker,

    callahan might not be a top 6 forward right now (he’s not), but dubinsky definitely is.

  313. When can a collegiate player be considered home grown? To my knowledge, McDonagh never played in another NHL team’s system. He’s been on the Badgers.

  314. Darren

    so Brian Leetch isnt a homegrown Ranger? i mean he went straight from NCAA to NYR, never played a single game in the minors.

    a homegrown player is someone who comes through your farm system and continues their development with the big club…

  315. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    Of your list 4.5 of those guys at this point are potential NHLers and that is is (mcdonut, pashinin, mcilrath, and TK. Valentenko is the .5) the rest are career minor leaguers or occasional call ups.

    Maybe I am misunderstanding a term here…GOON. Now my take on a goon is a guy that has ZERO hockey skill for the most part and forest gumps his way to a few points a season and about 350 PIMs and about 40 fights a season or whatever in the NHL and plays about 3 minutes a night. He doesn’t really hit or play any kind of defencive game, shows up late to scrums and starts a donny brook. Colton orr comes to mind or darren langdon or enrico ciconne (don’t remember how to spell the guys name, just remember gravey dropping the gloves with him after he boarded savard).

    Several people here seem to think physical hard hitting guys that have grit and edge to their game that can play nasty and will drop the gloves are GOONS?? I would consider guys like beuke, phanuef, gravey, iggy, messier, mike richards, scott stevens these types of players.

    Would you call any of those guys GOONS? I certainly wouldn’t!!

    Maybe I’m really confused here, but with all due respect some of you need to bone up on your hockey knowledge before you start calling guys goons that are nothing close to being a GOON!

  316. oleosmirf,
    that’s what i meant. mcdonagh could very well be considered homegrown just as much as leetch. he’s been playing in college at wisconsin, never in the montreal system. we didn’t draft him, but we’ll be the first nhl system he’s to which he’s exposed.

  317. in the year 2525 on

    the next cba needs to put an end to this malarkey. handing out ridiculous length contracts just to get lower cap hits is still a detriment to the NHL and its fans.

    why? because it still means that the debbies will raise prices eventually to pay out $102 million bucks for one thing

    and if financially troubled teams did it, they would be going belly up eventually, just exactly what the last cba was supposed to fix.

    don’t forget, these guys will still get paid even when they quit and they are not on the cap, thus these teams will have to come up with the bucks to pay them PLUS the cap money in that current year.

    for instance, in 2021, Kovalchoke will be 38 years old. he will probably quit and receive $3.5 mill from the debbies. that will go outside the cap, but debbie fans, the few there are, will have to pony up for it.

    or, if the money is not there, then they will spend a few million less on real live cap players so they can pay off their retired kovalchoker

  318. Darren, are you for real?

    When can a collegiate player be considered home-grown?

    How about always!

    In every American sport.

  319. To me, home grown is either a player signed [depending on age] or drafted by the organization.

    McDonagh might not have played in the NHL, but he’s been a part of the Habs organization for a few years now.

    It’s like a prositute changing pimps, in a way. She might belong to this pimp, but she once belonged to another pimp, and you can’t ever change that.

  320. Wow. Let’s see. Our topics today included: Steinbrenner, Dolan, Sather (a gimme, I suppose), Staal, Kovalchuk, McCue, Gange, Parise, D-men, goons, forwards, the definition of homegrown, cupcakes, and phony phone calls. (and of course, the requisite Aves mention :)

    Hmmm. Not bad for a mid-July day I’d say. You guys rock. Greg, what else you want to talk about buddy :)

  321. CR9,
    That’s exactly what I meant. McDonagh is just as home-grown as any other Rangers prospect. He hasn’t played in any other NHL system.

  322. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    If a player has ever been the property of an NHL franchise or its minor league affiliates, then that is their initial organization regardless of playing time within that organization. If that first organization is NOT the rangers, then the player is NOT homegrown.

    I agree with orr, mcdonut is not homegrown. Staal would be homegrown.

    I thought girardi was part of the AVs system before we got him??

  323. and wicky,

    so was lindros not home-grown for the flyers because they didn’t draft him directly?

  324. would you say that McDonagh was home-grown if he plays a couple seasons in Hartford before debuting for the Rangers? I suspect most would. I think he’s home-grown as soon as he sets foot into training camp as a pro for the first time, a Ranger.

  325. R: Tampa Bay’s new GM: Don’t forget their three best players were already there…

    R: Callahan a top 6 player?: I think Callahan in the right combination makes a good second line winger. He’s all over the ice and isn’t afraid to shoot or go to the net. He’s proven when he’s able, to be a very productive player.

    R: Rangers have plenty of options on defense in the next several years. A player like Sanguinetti became expendable the moment Gilroy signed at the end of the ’09 season, especially with MDZ already in the mix. Like someone mentioned earlier… they can’t bring all of their prospects up simultaneously.


  326. unless there’s some secret annexation of the University of Wisconsin by Les Habitues that I don’t know about…

  327. Olga Folkyerself on

    Homegrown is when you plant the seeds, grow them yourself and don’t buy or trade for it out on the street.

  328. Wicky,
    No prob. I hope Williams pans out. I remember his stock was much higher when brought in by the Avs. He’s fallen quite out of favor since, but he’s physically talented and not at all small.

  329. wicky (Crease Clearing Blog Goon) on

    I would say lindros was nordique property, so not home grown flyer. Iggy was not home grown flame, he was stars property. mcdonut is not a homegrown ranger, he was hab property. Give sather credit where credit is due, he acquired him.

    Home grown would be someone you don’t acquire, you draft them or sign them as an undrafted free agent in their draft year.

  330. Olga Folkyerself on

    Homegrown is definitely the best. That’s why Sather fails, he’s always picking up the old stale stuff off the streets.


  331. Obviously the uses of “home grown” and “elite” are very different from others.

    Well how aboot this…Hank is home grown, but he’s not elite!

    I just blew all of your minds right now!

  332. wicky,

    but what if you grow them? the nordiques had no part in developing lindros. the flyers grew him [from a pretty dank seed]. iginla spent no time developing in the stars system. mcdonagh might see more Rangers coaching in his first day of training camp than he did during the several years the habs held his rights. maybe master gardener torts will grow him.

  333. im sorry but homegrown means they made their debut with your team…a homegrown player is someone who you watch grow from rookie to veteran as a part of your team

    i mean Eli Manning is a homegrown Giant…the fact that he was drafted by SD and traded b/c he refused to play for them is irrelevant b.c it was with the Giants that he developed into an NFL player…same goes for John Elway or Eric Lindros or Peter Forsberg…

  334. if a guy is traded on draft day its a lot different than if he is traded 2 years later. so the guys oleo just mentioned were homegrown because the trades happened reasonably quick. in the case of lindros it was obvious from day 1 he would not sign with quebec. mcdonagh was a different case and was fully montreal property and only traded for montreal to get scott gomez.

  335. nose picker,
    but did mcdonagh ever donne a montreal uniform other than at the draft (or any montreal affiliates)? how could he have grown with them if he was still an amateur? he turned pro with the rangers and will develop with the rangers. he’s not someone who sather and team can claim as a drafted prospect, but he’s definitely their developmental property.

  336. Olga Folkyerself on

    Darren, maybe you hit on something- A player is homegrown with the organization that first signs him to a pro contract. That would cover draft picks, (very) early acquisitions and refusals to play, like loser Lindros.

  337. “but did mcdonagh ever donne a montreal uniform other than at the draft”

    In my opinion, that doesn’t matter, he trained with them for too long to be considered home grown Ranger property. They were in his mind too long!!!

    And I agree aboot trading a player on draft day. That definitely doesn’t count!

  338. >>im sorry but homegrown means they made their debut with your team…a
    >>homegrown player is someone who you watch grow from rookie to veteran as a
    >>part of your team

    Hmm, that’s an interesting take. I always thought “home grown” to mean a drafted player who developed in your own minor league system.

  339. Olga Folkyerself on

    That’s true. Sather doesn’t know homegrown from oregano, and look how well he’s done so far…

  340. im sure all Calgary fans consider Iginla to be homegrown regardless of the fact he was never drafted by them…he played his whole career there to this point.

  341. Olga Folkyerself on

    Sweet Caroline
    Good times never seemed so good
    I’ve been inclined
    To believe they never would

  342. This latest home grown discussion has made me realize how boring hockeyless summer is, especially now that Kovalchook is off the market.

    Now it’s just a matter of waiting until training camp. Ugh!!

  343. Orr,
    I think there will be some more news. there are still some teams that are severely understaffed, over-salaried, or both. there will be some more moves before camp

  344. Olga Folkyerself on

    I can hardly wait for Sather’s next big move. I’m sure it will be memorable, in it’s own way…

  345. I think there are still some roster spots open in Charlotte. Maybe once some NFL linemen get cut from training camps, Sather will give them a shot to play defense and learn to skate.

  346. Olga Folkyerself on

    The Devils named John MacLean its new head coach and signed defensemen Henrik Tallinder and Anton Volchenkov. New Jersey also re-acquired center Jason Arnott, as well as signing Ilya Kovalchuk to a 17 year deal.

    Rangers acquire D McCue from Ducks, traded for Steve Eminger, Jyri Niemi, Acquired Free agent Derek Boogaard, and goalie Mary Biron.

    Wow, who’s making moves, and who’s sinking in quicksand? Maybe if Sather didn’t have the millstones, Drury, Redden, Rozival around his neck…

  347. I wouldnt call the John MacLean appointment “a move” The choice was promote him, or lose him forever. The other 3 Grossman clients and Arnott are good moves. He’s a rookie coach, but with this new line up, he can be like Joe Girardi. Do anything you want, and watch them win and be called “great”

  348. Olga Folkyerself on

    I figured the coaching change as a move, whether the new coach came from within or outside.

    The point is, Lou’s team has finished higher in the standings then Glen’s team every year that Sather has been here. And next year will be no different…

  349. He was drafted as a Devil. But did play for your team a few years, and finished with the Dallas. So, yes, he’s a home grown run away.

  350. Olga Folkyerself on

    Did anyone notice I typed “Mary” Biron above? I didn’t know she was available…

  351. Olga Folkyerself on

    (singing) Don’t Bogart that joint, my friend, Pass it over to me”….

  352. Don’t laugh about Jessiman, I hear he’s on the verge of a career breakout year

  353. Olga Folkyerself on

    Don’t Boogaard that puck, my friend
    Pass it over to me
    Don’t Boogaard that puck, my friend
    Pass it over to me

    Punch another one
    Just like the other one
    You’ve been bangin into him
    And he sure can’t take a hit

  354. ZzZz NYR ZzZz " Kovalwaste !! " … says Greg L. on

    Naww Momma , its all good. Just telling it how I sees it :)

  355. Should have known something was wrong when Sather drafted Jessiman and stepped to the podium: “you will love this pick, trust me. Wait until you see this guy return kicks.”

  356. i mean…how bad you have to be to never ever…ever…EVER get a freaking chance to play at least a shift in the NHL after being picked so high! So sad…

  357. Olga Folkyerself on

    My heart sank when they said Jessiman was going to be a good project… A first round pick and he’s already a project! He left such a stink that you can still smell it on Sather even when he’s smoking stogies.

  358. Olga Folkyerself on

    (Sather Singing)

    Feeling better now that Jessiman’s through
    Feeling better ’cause I’m done with you
    I learned my lesson, it left a scar
    Now I see how you really are

    You’re no good
    You’re no good
    You’re no good
    Hugh you’re no good

    I’m gonna say it again
    You’re no good
    You’re no good
    You’re no good
    Jessiman you’re no good

  359. Olga Folkyerself on

    Not much. Some grape jelly, a couple pickles, mustard and steamed broccoli…

  360. Olga Folkyerself on

    In-a-gadda-da-vida honey,
    don’tcha know that I love you?
    In-a-gadda-da-vida baby,
    don’tcha know that I’ll always be true?

    Oh won’tcha come with me,
    and take my hand?
    Oh won’tcha come with me,
    and walk this land?

    Please take my hand…

    Let me tell ya now.
    In-a-gadda-da-vida honey,
    don’tcha know that I love you?
    In-a-gadda-da-vida baby,
    don’tcha know that I’ll always be true?

    Oh won’tcha come with me,
    and take my hand?
    Oh won’tcha come with me,
    and walk this land?

    Please take my hand…

    Let me tell ya.

    (17 minutes later…)


    In-a-gadda-da-vida honey,
    don’tcha know that I love you?
    In-a-gadda-da-vida baby,
    don’tcha know that I’ll always be true?

  361. The only thing I can think of to stop the insanely frontloaded long contracts in the next CBA is to force the cap hit to stay on the books unless the player is bought out, and then the buyout hit should be based on the entire contract’s cap hit, not just the remaining salary.

  362. Olga Folkyerself on

    Spider, they should make the Cap hit exactly what they are paying the player that year. That will stop all this nonsense…

  363. First Lamo-riello ruined the game with trap hockey…now he’ll ruin the game with this huge contract… awesome!

  364. Yukon Al Folkyerself on

    Bettman should void the contract. But he won’t. Lame-o has him in his hip pocket…

  365. Yukon Al Folkyerself on

    Well, Olga passed out a while ago, so we duct-taped her to a lawn chair and put her out for tomorrow’s garbage pickup.

    Hugo has been staring at the test pattern on the TV for the last half hour, so he’s not going anywhere.

    I’m going to bed, I gotta work tomorrow… This is exactly how I remembered the sixties… So

    Yukon Al Folkyerself
    Good Night!

  366. ZzZz NYR ZzZz " Kovalwaste !! " … says Greg L. on

    …blame the guy on da couch. ( Olga you have been boogaarding it!!!)

  367. Yukon Al Folkyerself on

    Man, look at this place! Mama’s gonna kill us when she gets home….

  368. Blueshirt in Paris on

    Anyone else think that the Flyers waited for the Kovy news to hit so they could move Gange under the radar?

  369. Greetings to all, This webpage is good quality and so is the manner in which the issue was developped. I like some of the comments too though I would prefer we remain on the topic so that to add value to the point. It will be also encouraging to the one who penned it down if we all could mention it (for those who use social media such as a delicious, twitter,..). Thanks again.

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