Nick the Great


Nick Lidstrom got his 1,000th point last night.

As a six-time Norris Trophy winner and a four-time Stanley Cup champion, there is zero doubt that he goes into the Hall of Fame the moment he is eligible. But where does he stand all-time?

The other 1,000-plus point defensemen in history are, in order, Raymond Bourque, Paul Coffey, Al MacInnis, Phil Housley, Larry Murphy, Denis Potvin and Brian Leetch.

My thought has always been that Lidstrom is pretty much the same player as Brian Leetch, just a little bigger. Same with Bourque. If you put Leetch on the Red Wings all those years, instead of on the dreadful teams on which his skills were wasted in the late 1990s and early 2000s, we’d be talking about Leetch as a five- or six-time Norris winner and one of short list of very best all-time.

I don’t think I’ll ever be convinced anybody was ever better than Bobby Orr on defense — and Bobby Orr is the only player I would even consider to have been as good as Gretzky.

Who else is among the best ever? Or, if you had to build an all-time team, which six defensemen would you pick, and in what order?

Where would a guy like Larry Robinson fit? Or Scott Stevens? Or Wade Redden? … OK, I’m just kidding. Thoughts?

Here’s the list of Norris Trophy winners.

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  1. repost, sorry:

    Thanks Staal. And I agree with you, people have whining alot, most times those statements are paradoxes since – as you said – people still participate and read.

    My comment was more of a question, which was quickly answered. I’m the last person to complain about this blog, or Carp, since this is kind of my second home. I see all you guys as friends and fellow fans who make the Rangers “experience” much more enjoyable.

    I really liked the blog back in the Sam-days, and I enjoy even more now, since alot of us regulars have kind of gotten to know each other.

    Wow, this is getting sentimental. Tears… coming… need… red wine… and shoulder… Where are you Grabby?

  2. In other Rangers’ “news,” David Backes scored his first goal of the year for the Blues against the Yotes last night.

    Lidstrom. Um, who cares?

  3. Alex T (Idfalk @ Hockeystreams) on

    1st pair – Orr/Chara
    2nd pair – Leetch/Lidström
    3rd pair – Coffey/Bourque
    7th D – Scott Niedermeyer (if he’d retired a couple of years ago)

    I know that Chara is a strange pick, but I’d just love that combination. As would any team, anytime.

  4. One comment on your post before we get to defensemen, I think if Mario hadn’t had all of his health problems that you might have been able to put Mario in the Orr/Gretzky category. It is truly a shame that we missed out on what could have been some incredible seasons.

    As for D, if I had to pick one stay at home D guy, that’d be Scott Stevens. Granted I’m 28 and never got to watch some of the all time greats in their prime but Stevens was a one of a kind monster who not only shut down the opposing team’s best players night in and night out but was among the best hitters ever.

  5. ? you’re right.. Lidstrom has nothing to do with hockey!

    in other hockey news, two rednecks went hunting and shot a deer!

  6. I barely remember Orr with the Bruins, I have better memories when he was with Chicago, and his knees were shot! I don’t know if I can pick a top 6 in my time but some memorable are Leetch, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway (with the Caps), Al Iafrate (later known as Al I-A-Fatty), Borje Salming, Lidstrom, Bourque, Coffey, Scott Stevens was always tough. MacInnis was always known for his hard shot but he developed into a solid D, winning a norris. Barry Beck was a monster but too injured to make the cut. Just some names to throw out there. Night all!

  7. I’m just waiting for the ladies (and Micheletti) to chime in with MDZ being on their all-time fantasy defensemen list…

  8. Interesting stuff Carp. It’s true Leetch played on some abysmal teams which hurt his career towards the end as it probably cost Mike Richter the HHOF. How many more could Richy have won than the 301 he still wound up with? And that includes serious ACL injuries he worked hard to comeback from.

    Leetch played banged up too and of course sacrificed his body in the path of shots, getting hurt which cost us one season with Lindros.

    As great as No.2 was, to me Lidstrom’s the better player. Defensively, he can work with anyone. The model of consistency Nick’s achieved is similar to the success Martin Brodeur has across the Hudson. It’s hard to put into words what Lidstrom’s done.Amazing stuff from one of the all-time greats.

    Of course Rick, nobody was Bobby Orr. To hear my Dad tell it, he’d take Orr over anyone including Gretz, Mario, Howe and Mess.

  9. Just came across this:

    Larry Robinson was +730 during his career, an NHL record that still stands to this day.

  10. what on God’s green earth is going on with Josh’s photo??? You’re gonna cause a rip in the space-time continuum with all this mess!!

    Laurel, your basketball team reference was pure comedy gold!!

    Congrats to Liddy on yet another achievement. He may not be a Ranger, but you GOTTA respect the skills/talent of others! I’ve always thought he was a great player!

  11. Shoryuken

    I’m still getting it on Cablevision…I think it will be there until MLB is over because it’s part of the same thing.

    Could be wrong though.

  12. Top 6 D-men…

    Bobby Orr
    Ray Bourque
    Dennis Potvin
    Niklas Lidstrom
    Larry Robinson
    Brad Park

    Debate? Go for it!

  13. Evan, Mario was close. But he wasn’t Gretzky. Nobody was. Check out the record book. What Gretzky did was greater, statistically, than what any athlete in any team sport has ever done.

    Would have liked to have seen Mario healthy all his career … also could have done without the diving and the whining, but that’s another story. Gretzky whined to the officials, too, but not nearly as much publicly.

  14. Orr
    List of DMEN that I have seen.
    Larry Murphy is the conversation, Macinnis as well.

  15. Bad news and good news! I came home and someone (or some cats) had unplugged the beer fridge and now I’m drinking WARM beer. Crap.

    Good news! My roommate came home and told me that his parents are giving us their tickets to the Rangers-Sabres game in December! That might be the best game EVER. I’m gonna wear my Dubinsky jersey and my sassy boots! Now lets hope I live to tell the tale.

    My favorite DMAN ever is the MDZMAN. Just JKing around, kinda.

  16. Sally

    MDZMAN isn’t as HUGE as other HUGE guys we have/ had but he is one of my favorite too! Italian stallion!

    P.S. let’s see those sassy boots!

  17. You guys picked all the obvious choices… what aboot Eddie Shore (four times Hart Trophy winner), Scott Niedermayer, Chris Chelios, even Scott Stevens… are they among the best ever?

  18. poor Sally, drinking warm beer, so wrong on sooo many levels! That’s so awesome that you’re gonna be at the Rangers Sabres game! Take some pics of the horrible slugs former digs! I am missing the WWE event less than 5 miles away for me because or lack of fundage and my fiancee is ‘too old’ (lmao) to go out and have a fun time at ‘wrestling’! I just wanna go see Jon Cena and Randy Orton. I am bummed.

    Sally, her sassy boots and dubinsky jersey are number one on the fashion list! YOU GO GIRL!!

  19. Chelios definitely has the longevity. Scott Stevens was one of the most brutal bangers I’ve ever seen! That guy could put a hurtin on Oprah!

    lmao @ ‘its spelled Carp’… thats another reason why i love this blog.

  20. In the world of Drury, you’d have to add Ken Morrow, i mean he DID win an Olympic gold AND Stanley Cups.

  21. Orr was a great player during a time when the NHL was not very talent filled. They would be one step down from what we consider beer leagues now.

    To say he is as good as Gretzky is delusional.

    His talent level was 10 fold of anyone he played with at the time. Go look at some video clips of plays he made and just watch how terrible these players are at skating, positioning, etc…

  22. Carp if you want to get out of the assignment I could call in a bomb threat to the stadium demanding fitted caps for all the fans.

  23. WOW you guys are hysterical!!! I’ve been so busy all day and missed today’s hi-jinx and antics. And WTF is up with Josh’s pic? It looks like Eddie Munster & Jerry Lewis had a love child.



  24. Hehe, sorry Carp! I won’t make that mistake again.

    Linda, do you think Aves would approve of my style?

    Me and my boots are gonna go see the Wild Things! I’ll get some pictures up for the game tomorrow. Didn’t realize you boneheads liked boots so much…

  25. Oh crap, Carp!! Totally YES Fetisov!! ive been watching so much NHL that i sometimes forget that there are great Russian boprn players too!! Fetisov is definitely the best Russian born Dman… Kasatonov, Bilyaletdinov, Vasiliev, Lutchenko… those guys are all great too. Konstantinov was great too before the unfortunate event. Gusarov, Kravchuk…

    P.S. I met Fetisov on my birthday several years back in restaurant “International” on Brighton, yes… on Brighton…and no, he didn’t check his coat… this is one person I would never coat-check… EVER… if anything I would give him my own coat and pants if needed! The guy is HUGE!

  26. girl, you gotta know when someone describes something as “SASSY” we’re all gonna wanna see!!

    ORR must be makin some room in his house for all the Megan Fox armani ads he’ll be owning.

  27. Correction

    Fetisov isn’t just the best Russian born player but one of the best hockey players to ever play the game.

    Thank you.

  28. Yes it was, Linda… and i even have the picture to prove it! He was sitting few tables away from my table… i couldn’t believe my eyes! It was just him and some other dude i don’t know. I kind of “burnt his cover” by approaching him to shake his hand and to ask to take a picture. After that almost everyone in the restaurant wanted to take a photo with him… and i dont blame them… the guy is a living legend.

  29. Great post Johnny!!

    CCCP, it’s so great to run into hockey players at random places. They are usually pretty cool about chatting for a few and taking a pic or two.

    daaaaaaaamn! i’m watchin a cartoon and evander holyfield is on it and part of his ear is missing!!! Freakin hilarious. (doesnt take much to crack me up!!)

  30. Orr, don’t miss it. Great episode. Obviously.

    Johnny, I’m running around closing all the windows now. I think you should demand that if the game gets rained out tomorrow, they call all the fans and tell them.

    Sally, did I hear something about some new sassy boots?

  31. Rick

    That is great news about Nicky Lidstrom. He’s been a favorite Dman of mine for some time and you are 100000% correct about Leetch if he was on better Ranger teams all of the accolades, honors & hardware he would have stock piled in his possession.

  32. Izzy Mandlebaum on

    Evan- “One comment on your post before we get to defensemen, I think if Mario hadn’t had all of his health problems that you might have been able to put Mario in the Orr/Gretzky category.”

    Why is it that everyone needs to use the word “if” to try to compare Mario to Gretzky? Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda…. What in Holy Hell? Gretzky is World’s Greatest, and that’s better than just #1. (or #66)

  33. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    Kevin Lowe
    Charlie Huddy
    Jeff Beukaboom
    Paul Coffey
    Marty McSorley
    Lee Fogolin

    Sally , ya must show us a link of your new Hooker boots!! If your gonna have a real pic tomorrow …thats fine too.

  34. Shite, just got home with mom, missing all the night fun….you all are cracking me up! gotta go (sob)

    for my two cents…Leechy, Beuke and Sally’s boots….OK, odd combo, but I think that’s a great line!

  35. Gravey—That Rammstein video is the BEST MUSIC VIDEO I have EVER SEEN !!!!!



  36. The difference between the Rammstein video and an “adult” film? Most “adult” films have a better soundtrack. Most overrated industrial band ever.

  37. Okay, sassy boot pictures tomorrow. Anything for my boneheads!

    Just saw Where the Wild Things are and I come home to Buffalo kicking some Islander butt. Also, came home to pajamas and hot apple cider with rum.

    Man, it’s been a good week.

  38. funny how some boys, once they hear ‘Sassy’ think ‘hooker’. interesting, isnt it sally? how was the movie, how IS the cider, and are they feety pajamas. I wonder what Greg’s thinkin about your pjs

  39. Veeeery interesting, Linda. The movie was sweet, but I’m not really sure what it was trying to say. Loved the Wild Things though! The cider is really, really tasty. I don’t even want to know what Greg’s thinking about my jammies…

    How’s your night going?

  40. Izzy Mandlebaum on

    “I’m freakin’ freezing here.”

    Not cold enough to make a man out of you, Daffodil.

  41. Rough night for the Patrick Division. I’m sure you guys are heart-broken.

    Johnny and Izzy, you guys are killing me.

    “Attention Steinbrenner and front office morons!”

    Sally, pass the cider!

  42. Just passing the time relaxing Sally. Tomorrow will be cooking most of the day and gettin PUMPED FOR HOCKEY. Sunday maybe pumpkin pickin’, but with all the rain we’ve had the past 2 weeks, the pickins may be slim! Hopefully we’ll find a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE pumpkin that I’ll call tbone, and have the man carve him and I’ll get a bag of doritos and put em on its head!

  43. We have a streaker on the field. No wait, it’s Rick Carpiniello in a flesh colored body suit.

  44. Linda, that sounds like a perfect weekend! What are you cooking? Can I have some?

    Maybe I’ll carve a pumpkin of Dubinsky pickin his nose. Cause he’s my little pumpkin!

  45. Olga, yes, but you can’t pay in change. You got to have bills, paper money.

    I know what you mean about my chatter. I feel like Grabachev. That’s what happens when you sit through a baseball game. If this were the NHL, Vladimir Guerrero would be looking to fight Teixeira right about now, send a message for Game 2.

  46. Of course I got carped again on the last thread, so here is the repost

    Top ranger moments this week
    1 avery’s 2 goals
    2 prospal’s emotion
    3 carp sstating my crease clearing comments could not be complained about (do I bring that up alot????)!
    4 anyone using abdelkader in any sentence
    5 sally’s methods class, how did the test go btw after all of my great insight?? (actually sally’s boots may have been the #1 moment of the week, but w/o a pic I’m calling total BS)
    6 laurel’s blog and all the awesome banter here from everyone!!

    Have a crease clearing hard hitting physical d man day to all!!!

  47. Sally if you did that, you’d definitely have to send me a post card photo of it…you have my address!!!

    Tomorrow I’m making lentil soup, split green pea soup, beef stew for the upcoming week, and chicken parmigiana for dinner!!

    Poor Carp!!! he needs some irish coffee pronto! LMAO Olga, Rick Calzones, dont know why its so funny, but it is

  48. Oh yeah, Linda, I owe you some drawings. I promise I’ll get them to you sometime before I graduate! Holy moly that’s quite a menu. I was thinking about making some lentil soup too! Great minds…

  49. If this were the NHL, Vladimir Guerrero would be looking to fight Teixeira right about now, send a message for Game 2.


    Great job Carpy, hilarious!!

  50. hey guys I’m in Toronto for the game tomorrow, and I was wondering if anyone knew what hotel the Rangers stayed at in Toronto.


  51. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    WHEWWWW I though me old “hooker” comment may have landed me in hot water!!! Well , kinda did , Now Linda and Sally think im a pervert , geeeze!! Btw are they Ranger Jammies??

    Glad ya got a chuckle ‘ol mr 2 and 2 , that for the complement , (in yer face CCCP!!)

    Carp calling me Beavis today , he’s getting a quote from them now.

    * “Have you ever noticed that Madonna is always masturbating during her videos?”
    “Heh, hem, yeah, so am I.””
    Beavis & Butthead

  52. On the d men topic, my top six with two spares in no particular order, top 6….ulfie, orr, konstantinov, leetch, lidstrom, bueke…..spares….robinson and stevens.


    nice job with the lidstrom post!!!

  53. I know you’re busy Sally! whenever ya have the time!

    great minds indeed! do you actually use the dried beans or the good ole progresso canned soup?

    yea!! they were just playin for whom the bell tolls at the rutgers game! woo hoo. Aw crap the yanks win game one…poop.

  54. Rick quoting Beavis and Butthead!! I’ve read it all now!!!

    Don’t think you’re a pervert Greg! You’re a guy!!! ;-)

  55. Doug Harvey is a top D-man of all-time based on many of the lists I’ve seen (probably not mentioned here because he played in 40’s -60’s) He won 7 Norris Trophys. I bring him up because many of us can relate to him.

    From Wikipedia:

    Harvey battled alcoholism while suffering from bipolar disorder. One of professional hockey’s greatest stars ended up homeless, sleeping in an abandoned railway car.

  56. I was thinking dried lentil, with potatoes and carrots… maybe something curryish? I’m a terrible cook, though I made some pretty decent Irish beef stew a few weeks ago. What’s your lentil soup plan?

  57. Olga, your brilliance never cease to amaze me. but it should have read… aw CARP…

    dde, that’s a sad story. Chuck, I’m on baseball hiatus. I’ve been on strike from the Mets since I moved to Bama because they disgust me. Horrendous gm, terrible owners, coach without a clue, and half hearted effort by too many of the players. HMMM sounds somewhat familiar to recent past eh??

  58. Sally, actually just making them plain for the man. He’s gettin burnt out on brown rice right about now. Your soup sounds good!!

    Hell, I was at Gil Hodges funeral, been a Mets fan pretty much my entire life, but once i discovered hockey, they fell behind the Rangers. And now that they are in a shambles yet again, i’ve kinda lost my zest for them. Besides, they are not on tv much down here, and I’ll only pay to watch hockey on the computer!

  59. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    Carp , I thought it was hilarious , you saying about pulling a Grabachev , haha so true , so true. He’s a nice guy though …wish he would capitalize his words more.

    Yeah guys think hooker when we hear sassy. Sassy is like knowing your sexy but play hard to get?..yeah thats not hookerish at all.

    It almost seems unfair to the Fantasy draft guys being banned from talking the draft. I say let’em talk , wait a minute not in that…nawwww skip it . Keep as is :)

    A F L Y and wicky , good lists ..interesting.

  60. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    One question , Linda is your man a Ranger fan too or do you hold the pants in the family? I honestly don’t know any ladies who like the Rangers around here or hockey even , it’s always the guys watching it and the women just put up with it. When I was young growning up , my Mom always said , “turn that crap off!!” I’m an avid fan even more now, ty Mom.

  61. my fiancee is not really a sports fan!!! can you imagine!! its very odd. He does watch football ( bengals) and will watch hockey. I’ve actually taken him to a few games of our local SPHL team, and we went to Nashville in March when the Rangers played the Preds, it was like Aves 3rd game back, he scored and I did a freakin dance in the aisle and screamed my head like a lunatic. Its awesome that he’s HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE cuz noone messes with me! I’m trying to convert him, but he’s too into his studies right now to really follow.

  62. Linda

    Before they used to send my team out on ops in the military, we always used to listen to “for whom the bell tolls”.

  63. hot apple cider with rum…mmmmmm…sounds really delicious! How come i never thought of that??
    any particular rum? Can I use whiskey? Makers Mark…yummmyyy

    You got my imagination going with that thing Sally!

  64. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    HUUUUUUGE as in Mike in ia big or as in CCCP coat check toughness!!?? You dancing like a lunitic in Preds county is perty brave , you better watch out or you’ll get him in trouble one day :o As long as he cheers for the Rangers when theres a reason too (at a game) then hes alright by me!!

  65. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    dam cccp showed up , I didn’t think ya would be here for what I said.

  66. Greg, really? “Guys think hooker”? Lets not assume that all men are as misogynistic as you.

    Aaand I’m outta here. Night boneheads.

  67. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    easyy CCCP , or I will sick Local fan on you. HAHA , you and him do not get along . Was it him , who said that all Russians are stinky? I always remeber the fights , funny how that is.

  68. HUGE as in bodybuilder/powerlifter but not fat! sally’s seen his pic, she knows :-). Hell, lemme tell you about brave. When my daughter was like 8 or 9, I took her to her first Rangers Islanders game at the Masoleum. She’s all decked out in her Messier jersey, her Rangers hat and coat, you name it. We get to our section, and as the game is going on, the Rangers are winning and she’s going crazy! There’s a drunk guy 3 rows behind us who starts talkin crap to her. I turned around to say something and one of his friends hit him and told him to leave her alone.

    Anyway, he continues on, and my kid calls the guy out, schooling him and totally embarrassed the guy in front of not only his friends, but our section and part of the section next to us (we were on the aisle). (Security guy was pretty close by us for about 1/2 the period, and he’s crackin up over my daughter tellin this guy off). Finally, the security guy goes up to the guy and says “If you so much as LOOK at that little girl again, you are OUT”. Rangers win the game, we’re celebrating, and the guys friends had to walk him out cuz he either didnt want to pass us or was totally gonzo. His friends apologized to us.

  69. holy carp you guys have totally gone to another level as i typed my story.

    Olga, love the reference!!!!

    CCCP, your post to greg = comedy gold, your misogynistic definition DEAD ON!!! Most women are total shrews and evil beyond imagination, but not Sally, Laurel and Beth.

    dde, i’d die of laughter if he wore ANYTHING sassy!!! (besides the posing ‘trunks’ of course!)

  70. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    ” Greg, really? “Guys think hooker”? Lets not assume that all men are as misogynistic as you.

    Aaand I’m outta here. Night boneheads.”

    misagynaststic? what juice are you drinking anyways? 180 proof cider? HAHAHA I nevered heard anyones tell me how it is in words like dat dare.

    I love ladies , never hate them . I have a daughter and a Awsome Mom that I love too , I even get along with my ex …I like Laurel and never hate those lovely ice kittens that clean up the ice at games. I think Megan fox is slutty and over arrogant but I don’t hate her either, shes cute.

  71. yes Linda, you girls are the coolest!

    Carp, I saw you waving…But why were you waving with your underwear? :P

    I feel like getting drunk or something…

  72. Chuck, you’re right. We need a hockey game. Unfortunately I will be at another baseball game and hopefully getting some radio reception in Yankee Stadium. I’ll be counting on you Boneheads to keep me posted, though.

    Good night, Sally!

  73. ZzZz NYR ZzZz "Saturday night is hockey night !!! " ...says Greg L. on

    Don’t worry Carp , you’ll be hearing ….GABORIK SCORESSSSSSS alot. We can’t expect 4 goals or more every game can we?? We have to be level headed here and we need to win some 2 -0 games or a 2 -1 games , kinda like playoff hockey.

  74. I better go to bed or ill find myself sleeping on the couch tonight.

    Good night kids. Shut the light on your way out…

  75. Olga Folkyerself on

    2-1 games is Renney hockey. We don’t want to go there again. Keep scoring 4 goals a game and see if they can keep up with us!

  76. will do CCCP!!! do we get a crazy dysfunctional Rangers family discount? ;-)

    Carp, stay warm tomorrow!!! Try not to fall asleep watchin all that action!

    Not only do we FINALLY have a hockey game to look forward to tomorrow night (its still friday in bama!) but also snaps of sally’s sassy boots! Prepare yourself Greg!!

    Chuck, keep it real!! dde, you’re a wild man!

  77. Damn shame all of the old-time hockey guys get overlooked. Ching Johnson, Art Coulter, etc … after reading Frank Boucher’s When The Rangers Were Young and the new 100 Ranger Greats, I’ve gotten appreciative of the guys who played back then.

    And I have to agree with ddebened that Doug Harvey has to be in any list of the greatest ever.

    my top 5 of guys I’ve seen with my own eyes (I’m 31):

  78. theflynn

    I left you a message a few threads back ;)

    I used to really like Langway ( for the mustache ) and Craig Ludwig ( those flaired out shin pads were nifty) But I would have loved to see the older guys play…

  79. Lidstrom is not in the same league as Bobby Orr

    Lidstrom cannot go coast to coast with the puck to go by all the defenders. he does not throw bodychecks. never fights. he is strictly a pokechecker, although a great one.

    he is the best at the offensive blueline, getting his shot through, and is a great PP point man. and a quiet leader.

    but again, he is not a great skater, more of a mobile tripod with great hockey sense and stick skills. cannot go end to end and score , and does not hit.

    outstanding player yes, but not as talented as Orr, Leetch, Coffey

  80. carp

    I have issue with you about Orr being greatest defenseman
    in his own end. Actually he was a bit more ordinary there, because he spent so little time there. His greatest defensive asset was that he was always on the attack and spent most of his time belaboring opponenet goaltenders. Defensively in his own end Brad Park was the better D man in this regard. It’s just that Orr’s spectacular skating and shooting and puck handling ability is what was so dynamic about is unforutnely short career. Don’t forget – he perfected the spinorama
    at top speed with the puck and scored some sensational goals doing so. Actually some of his goals were absolutely sensation to behold, and people actually began to EXPECT them.

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